Burnet County ESD #3 petition

[Kylfyre]

There is currently a petition that is being circulated in the Granite Shoals Fire Response Area for Local residents to form an Emergency Service District or ESD to fund Fire Department Services and First Responder EMS calls in the unincorporated and non- city areas of the Granite Shoals Fire District.
Emergency Services Districts are political subdivisions of Texas that are entrusted with providing emergency medical and fire services to many unincorporated areas of the state. Because emergency services districts are political subdivisions of the State of Texas, they are required to comply with all of the open government laws in addition to the health codes and regulations of emergency services providers.
An ESD is governed by a board of commissioners who are appointed for two year staggered terms. All members must own real property or be a registered voter in the district where they serve. ESD board set a tax rate from 1 cent to a maximum 10 cents per $100 evaluation. THESE FUNDS CAN ONLY BE USED FOR FIRE AND EMERGENCY SERVICES ONLY. The ESD can form a new fire department, or Contract with a another Fire Department to provide the services.

As mentioned above, there are many statutes and regulations (http://texasesdlaw.com/laws.htm) governing Texas emergency services districts. Perhaps the most important statute is Chapter 775 of the Texas Health & Safety Code.

For years the Granite Shoals Fire Department has provided these services to the City of Granite Shoals, City of Highland Haven, and all areas between Wirtz Dam Road to the Burnet County line in Kingsland. Funding Comes from Multiple sources including the City of Granite Shoals, Highland Haven, Burnet County, Fire Department Fundraisers, Grants (Federal and State) and Donations. This system has worked in the past when the Granite Shoals Fire Department Ran only a few Hundred Calls a year and did not have any paid Firefighters. Currently the Fire and Rescue Call volume has increased to 900 calls a year and a Part Paid and Part Volunteer Firefighter system.

The City of Granite Shoals residents pay approx 5 cents per $100 evaluation for the City Fire Service through City Taxes.Highland Haven and the Remaining unincorporated areas district pay much less than this amount.
In Early 2010 the City of Granite Shoals city council established a new Fire Protection Ordinance that outlines Fire Department responses to calls outside the City Limits. Basically the Fire department will not respond outside the city unless there is a valid and current mutual aid contract or a Valid and fair Contract from other entities that provide "adequate" Compensation to the City.

An ESD can enter an agreement with the city and provide "adequate" funding to the city of Granite Shoals for Fire Protection. The City of Granite Shoals cannot continue to subsidize its fire services to Non-city residents at the City's expense. So the Creation of ESD # 3 is necessary for the unincorporated areas to continue to have Fire Service from the City of Granite Shoals. Please note City of Granite Shoals Residents will not incur any new taxes from the formation of the ESD as they already pay for fire services.


To Sign the petition you must live in the own property within the proposed district and be a registered voter in Burnet County.
I know this thread is long and I am sure I have left something out, feel free to post questions or comments and I will answer them as soon as possible.


Austin Stanphill

[countryboy]

Didnt this issue get voted down last election??

[Kylfyre]

ESD #3 was placed on the Ballot last year and was turned down by voters. (Lost by 13 votes). This is another attempt to have the unincorporated area to pay their fair share for fire service coverage. If the ESD fails again the City of Granite Shoals will not provide Fire and Rescue services to these areas as of October, 1 2011. This will affect home owners insurance rates negatively and public safety issues. While it is understandable that nobody wants any taxes, City residents should not have to pay the fire bill for unincorporated areas that choose not to fairly fund the city for its resources. Many of the County residents agree that this is not a fair system. We have made several and continue to make attempts to educate the public of what the consequences will be. Even-though the ESD failed to pass the first time, this issue is too important not to bring up again.

[Peaches]

What you're saying is the boundary for the proposed ESD excludes property within the city limits of Granite Shoals? Also, when you say there was a vote on this "last year" do you mean 2009? Can't it only be placed on the ballot one time per year? Or, is the service area different than the past vote? Just curious as this issue has been proposed more than once in Llano County, but failed for not-so-good reasons.

[countryboy]

What you're saying is the boundary for the proposed ESD excludes property within the city limits of Granite Shoals? Also, when you say there was a vote on this "last year" do you mean 2009? Can't it only be placed on the ballot one time per year? Or, is the service area different than the past vote? Just curious as this issue has been proposed more than once in Llano County, but failed for not-so-good reasons.

This is in Burnet County. That is unless GS extends into Llano... It can be place on the ballot every year I believe and those who push the hardest one way or the other usually get Their way.
And Remember this. If it gets passed. make no mistake about that tax. They will vote for it to be all the way up to .10 per 100 as allowed. Then they will most likely increase values on propertys to reflect the supposed Higher Value due to these so called better services.. I will say this everytime to whom ever insists that we must keep taxing folks property.Once in place it will be abused by the powers that be.And it will never be a system where everyone Pays their FAIR share as the progressives claim.

[Wrangler]

I agree that it is unfair for the taxpayers of GS to fund the fire service for nonresidents. That said, my concerns about an ESD and its taxing powers are these:
(1) there are examples from both here in Texas and other states that government employees (especially those in FD and PD) often become unionized and basically end up "owning" the city treasury due to excessive pension demands. This is particularly true in parts of California and East Coast. There are many examples of this where FD members retire at 55 with $100,000/year pensions causing their cities to have over $1 million pension liabilities for just one (1) person. That's a benefit that cannot be duplicated in private industry. But, the taxpayers get stuck with the costs and have high taxes to support a few in excessive benefits. What is there in the ESD charter (rules,etc) to prevent such an event from happening to the taxpayers in this instance?
(2) Will the ESD charter (or whatever legal governing papers it has) prohibit unionized tax paid employees?
(3) If the ESD passes then will this mean that GS taxpayers will also pay an ESD tax on top of their GS property taxes? Will GS reduce their property taxes to effectively not increase taxes on GS residents? In other words, when a GS resident today pays their GS property taxes, a portion of that pays for the GS fire service. If a GS resident has to pay ESD taxes on top of GS property taxes, then they will have a net tax increase. OR, will the ESD only encompass residents outside of GS thus sparing GS residents of being double taxed?

If, as was stated, GS will cease answering fire alarms outside its city limits if an ESD is not created, does this mean that GS will no longer have MUTUAL AID AGREEMENTS with other FD's nearby? In other words, if a rural home catches fire between GS and Kingsland and Kingsland VFD responds and asks for mutual aid from GS that GS will NOT respond?

[countryboy]

We asked wrangler. Very good questions.Especially about Unionization and pensions.I never Knew they got that much in retirement benefits.
I think the GS residents would NOT pay both but could pay less in costs vs an Esd. If they pay .05 right now and the ESD sets their rate at .10. Who pays more??.

Also How do they figure insurances rates will go down.. What makes ones rates go down is competition. You can always switch Ins agents or companys but you cant switch or opt out of an ESD.That is unless you move.

[Frank_Reilly]

The City of Granite Shoals is wholly located in Burnet County, and its city limits abut the Llano County line in the middle of Lake LBJ. And Wrangler, this is Texas, not California and the East Coast, and the state has strong Right to Work guarantees in the Texas Constitution. There is no "ESD Charter"; the District will be governed by state law. As I understand it, the ESD board will be elected by the citizens in the district, so you'll have to hold those elected representatives accountable to be sure they don't take actions that you might not like. The ESD will not include properties in the Granite Shoals city limits, and Kylfyre is correct, the city will no longer subsidize out of city service (or provide it, other than mutual aid) after October 1, 2011.

[Peaches]

As I understand, the rural ESD Board would contract with an entity to provide the emergency service...that means they can shop surrounding fire or EMS departments and "buy" service from the one that offers the best price and service. Horseshoe Bay, for example, contracts with Marble Falls for EMS service. The ESD board will have control over the district - not Granite Shoals. To me, it seems the City of Granite Shoals is providing a valuable opportunity for the residents who live in the county outside the city limits.

[Kylfyre]

The ESD rate is set by the ESD board that is elected after the ESD is created. After the rate is set the ESD may only change the rate by having another election. To be on the ESD board you must be a registered voter in Burnet County and own property within the proposed ESD area. This gives the ESD the option to determine what kind of service they want to fund. The City of Granite Shoals will opt out of the district as they have their own fire service and continue to provide funding through taxes for its operation. So City of Granite Shoals tax payers will not be taxed twice.
The ESD (once formed) may contract with any fire service they want , or form their own fire department. Granite Shoals already has the infrastructure in place and will offer to continue their services to the County residents, but not at the expense of the City taxpayer, only with a signed agreement that fairly compensates the City. Remember the "ESD Board" sets the rate of taxes based on the service they wish to have. If the ESD is not created the City will not provide Fire and First response to the unincorporated areas of Burnet County.
Mutual Aid is not to be confused with Auto Aid. Mutual Aid is an agreement between agencies to provide assistance upon request and if resources are available to send. Currently the Granite Shoals Fire Department will not send it's primary apparatus nor will we "strip our district" to cover another districts response area. If we have extra resources or Reserve apparatus available, they will be sent, but the Granite Shoals Fire Department's Priority is our Fire Response district first and foremost.
So the bottom line is this county residents have an opportunity to pay for their fire service by the creation of the ESD. If it does not happen this time the city will no longer provide these services to County residents. Mutual aid is not "Free Service" and is meant to provide limited assistance for a limited time, this response may be delayed or in some cases may not be available at all.
Also if the Granite Shoals Fire Department does not service the area there will be a substantial increase in homeowners insurance rates for many of the County residents. In most cases it is alot more than what the ESD rate would have been in the First place.

[countryboy]

As I understand, the rural ESD Board would contract with an entity to provide the emergency service...that means they can shop surrounding fire or EMS departments and "buy" service from the one that offers the best price and service. Horseshoe Bay, for example, contracts with Marble Falls for EMS service. The ESD board will have control over the district - not Granite Shoals. To me, it seems the City of Granite Shoals is providing a valuable opportunity for the residents who live in the county outside the city limits.


How is Taxing folks for things they didnt Ask for an Opportunity? Thats forced taxation plain and simple once again.And when it comes to taxing folks property. I am totally against it since Taxing property means you Never OWN it.You only rent it.Plus you are at the discretion of having other individuals do things that may never Benefit you and place values on your property which means you might not be able to afford your home.Property Taxes in TEXAS need to be eliminated.

And yes the ESD would have control.But.If they contract with whom ever they decide on.How will a land owner get a guarantee of quality service?. After all the individual did not Contract with them.The board and ESD district did..Who is Liable for screw ups.And who would the owner sue should the need arise?

[countryboy]

The ESD rate is set by the ESD board that is elected after the ESD is created. After the rate is set the ESD may only change the rate by having another election. To be on the ESD board you must be a registered voter in Burnet County and own property within the proposed ESD area. This gives the ESD the option to determine what kind of service they want to fund. The City of Granite Shoals will opt out of the district as they have their own fire service and continue to provide funding through taxes for its operation. So City of Granite Shoals tax payers will not be taxed twice.
The ESD (once formed) may contract with any fire service they want , or form their own fire department. Granite Shoals already has the infrastructure in place and will offer to continue their services to the County residents, but not at the expense of the City taxpayer, only with a signed agreement that fairly compensates the City. Remember the "ESD Board" sets the rate of taxes based on the service they wish to have. If the ESD is not created the City will not provide Fire and First response to the unincorporated areas of Burnet County.
Mutual Aid is not to be confused with Auto Aid. Mutual Aid is an agreement between agencies to provide assistance upon request and if resources are available to send. Currently the Granite Shoals Fire Department will not send it's primary apparatus nor will we "strip our district" to cover another districts response area. If we have extra resources or Reserve apparatus available, they will be sent, but the Granite Shoals Fire Department's Priority is our Fire Response district first and foremost.
So the bottom line is this county residents have an opportunity to pay for their fire service by the creation of the ESD. If it does not happen this time the city will no longer provide these services to County residents. Mutual aid is not "Free Service" and is meant to provide limited assistance for a limited time, this response may be delayed or in some cases may not be available at all.
Also if the Granite Shoals Fire Department does not service the area there will be a substantial increase in homeowners insurance rates for many of the County residents. In most cases it is alot more than what the ESD rate would have been in the First place.

And do you have facts for those insurance rates going up??You dont know what each insurance company will charge an individual.. Each policy is different.Everyone carrys different coverage and at different amounts..

[tonigking]

ALL Insurance companies rate by the quality and proximity of the nearest fire dept./firehydrants that services the area where you live. In Granite Shoals we are fortunate to have the fire dept. we have , not to mention the availibility of plenty of water and water pressure.
As a GS taxpayer I would not be very happy if my house burned to the ground while our Guys were off out in the county somewhere fighting a fire for folks that don't want to pay their fair share.

PS: THANKS GRANITE SHOALS FIRE DEPT. FOR A GREAT JOB!!!

[Kylfyre]

Most insurance companies provide insurance rate based on the Fire Departments PPC rating(Property Protection Class). All departments receive a rating from 1 to 10. 1 being the best and 10 being not effective. Currently the City of Granite Shoals has a PPC rating of a 4 which for a volunteer Fire department is very good. This rate is determined by many things including fire dispatch services, water supplies, and Fire department operations. A third party company grades the Fire departments and evaluates all of these points and issues a score. Granite Shoals was evaluated in 2002 and receives its PPC 4 rating. This rate only applies to folks with 5 drive miles of the Granite Shoals Fire Station and within 1000feet of a credible water source. (IE a Constant Level lake, swimming pool or a Fire Hydrant). If your property does not meet this it automatically reverts to an PPC 10 rating. Many Insurance companies contact the fire department and ask for the Departments PPC rating and set their rates accordingly.
Some insurance companies do not use the PPC rating but many still do. Even if they do not use ISO they use a formula similar to ISO to determine Fire Department capabilities.
I have contacted several insurance companies and asked them what a policy for a PPC 4 rated home (at different values from 100k to 900k) and a PPC rated 10 home would cost. Every one of them had an increase of several hundred and in some cases thousands of dollars. I encourage you to call you insurance company and find out. Some have called and have actully uptated their insurance policy to reflect the PPC 4 rating and saved money on the insurance policies. I will be happy to provide the documentation for anyone that requests it.
So If Granite Shoals does not cover these areas they will revert to PPC 10 (worst case) or will obtain the new rating from another organization. Keep in mind the Granite Shoals Fire department has worked for decades to get to where it is at today and we continue to make improvements

[Waldo]

While not fair to have outlying areas not pay for service, neither is it fair for them to be charged twice what Granite Shoals pays. GREED pure and simple.

[Wrangler]

The City of Granite Shoals is wholly located in Burnet County, and its city limits abut the Llano County line in the middle of Lake LBJ. And Wrangler, this is Texas, not California and the East Coast, and the state has strong Right to Work guarantees in the Texas Constitution. There is no "ESD Charter"; the District will be governed by state law. As I understand it, the ESD board will be elected by the citizens in the district, so you'll have to hold those elected representatives accountable to be sure they don't take actions that you might not like. The ESD will not include properties in the Granite Shoals city limits, and Kylfyre is correct, the city will no longer subsidize out of city service (or provide it, other than mutual aid) after October 1, 2011.

Frank, I have followed your endevours thru this website over the years and I must praise you for your civic actions. That said, let's not confuse "right to work" with "bargaining". Cities such as Houston, Dallas, Austin, etc have unionized fire departments who have bargained for very rich pensions. And they have pension cost problems RIGHT NOW because of that. So, even with a "right to work" law in Texas, it is possible and, in fact, currently exists the same problems that California & East Coast have but here in Texas. Yes, there's trouble in River City (as the quote goes).

I believe Kylfyre is the Chief of GS FD. Is he a union member? Does GS have a bargaining agreement with union members of GS FD?

I notice you say voters will "elect" the ESD commissioners and can hold them accountable but Fylfyre says in his first post that commissioners are APPOINTED. Which is right?

I don't think that even if an ESD were created that the rating for many rural homeowners will change for quite some time, if ever. Reason being - there still won't be more water sources available than right now, there still won't be more fire apparatus available then right now. Now, give 10 years all that may change but the ESD will collect taxes while the rating probably won't change. In other words, if your rural home is rated a 10 now when GSFD may respond but is too far away and no water sources, merely passing an ESD isn't going to majically make it a 4 rating overnight. These things take time and in some cases never will change since the likelihood of having fire hydrants and a county-wide water system is practically nil.

The problem is real. I'm not dismissing that. My point is that even if an ESD is created, the fire rating for many rural homes is not going to change much, if any. The infrastructure simply isn't there to justify improving the rating. The BIG PLUS may be that better EMS service could become available but I'm not sure the current EMS service is inadeqate to begin with (just don't know!).

Infrastructure is the problem. GS has a 4 rating. Why doesn't it have a 2 rating? Probably because it lacks adequate water system with hydrants on looped water lines, etc to justify a 2. Again, an infrastructure problem. I know that GS is working on improvements but they take time and money. And money is what we don't have a lot of! I'm not blaming anybody for anything, just trying to point out that the solution is more complex than just "vote in a ESD".

Very good discussion, by the way.

[Kylfyre]

Waldo
First of all the ESD board would decide on a Fire service provider and what rate they will pay, NOT the City of Granite Shoals (they already pay city taxes for this service). If the ESD is created the Granite Shoals Fire Department can submit a budget to them and ask for "X" amount of dollars. If the ESD board thinks that is fair they can sign the agreement, if not then Granite Shoals would not provide the service, another agency would. So I do not see where the County residents are being charged twice as much, please explain.

The Bottom Line is that if County residents want to have a Fire Department , they need to fund it, and not expect the City to provide these services at the City taxpayers expense. The Cities of Burnet, Horseshoe Bay, or Marble Falls do not provide their services to the unincorporated areas at their tax payers expense for the exact same reason. Most county residents will agree. That is why the ESD petition is being passed, to give the County Residents, the opportunity to decide if they want the service or not.

[countryboy]

Waldo
First of all the ESD board would decide on a Fire service provider and what rate they will pay, NOT the City of Granite Shoals (they already pay city taxes for this service). If the ESD is created the Granite Shoals Fire Department can submit a budget to them and ask for "X" amount of dollars. If the ESD board thinks that is fair they can sign the agreement, if not then Granite Shoals would not provide the service, another agency would. So I do not see where the County residents are being charged twice as much, please explain.

The Bottom Line is that if County residents want to have a Fire Department , they need to fund it, and not expect the City to provide these services at the City taxpayers expense. The Cities of Burnet, Horseshoe Bay, or Marble Falls do not provide their services to the unincorporated areas at their tax payers expense for the exact same reason. Most county residents will agree. That is why the ESD petition is being passed, to give the County Residents, the opportunity to decide if they want the service or not.

You quoted that the GS residents pay approximately .05 per 100. An ESD can go as high as .10 per 100. Hence twice as much.(Even though it may range from .01 to .10. You can sure bet they would shoot for the higher))Thats what the guy meant.

[Kylfyre]

Wrangler

Yes I am the Fire Chief for the City of Granite Shoals. No I am not in the Union.
I am the only Full time Fire Employee in the City. There are 5 part time Fire Fighters (non Union)that work 1 FF per shift from 8 am till 4 pm 7 days a week. The back bone of our Fire department is 30 volunteer firefighters (non-union)that work 24 hrs a day 7 days a week.

When an ESD is created the initial board is appointed by the Burnet County Commissioners Court, after they serve their first terms then subsequent board openings are elected by the people in the ESD.

The reason Granite Shoals has a PPC rating of a 4 and not 2 has to do with funding. PPC looks at several factors in the organization all can be improved by spending money.
The Granite Shoals Fire Department budget is roughly $220,000 a year and we have a PPC of a 4, The City of Cedar Park Fire Department has a PPC rating of a 1 , but their budget is in the Millions of Dollars per year. They can afford multiple Fire and Ladder Trucks that are fully staffed with career Firefighter in multiple stations. The Granite Shoals Fire Department cannot afford that type of staffing so we have a Higher PPC rating.
Some other key factors to PPC grading are
Age, Number and type of trucks the department owns,
Is the Department full paid career, Combination Fire, or Volunteer and how many each.
How much Fire Training does each member receive.
What Equipment is on the Fire trucks.
How often are the Fire trucks and Equipment inspected.
How much water can the Fire Department deliver to an active fire scene with uninterrupted flow.
Is there an adopted Fire Code?
Fire Hydrants and other water sources.
Dispatch Capabilites and service

These are just a few of hundreds of points that Fire Departments are graded on.


Also your point of no hydrants in the County needs to be addressed. Fire Departments can and do bring mobile water sources to a fire scene. Tanker shuttles and water drops are common and are rehearsed as part of ongoing training in our department. New wet and dry hydrants are being planned for lots of the unincorporated area to address this problem as well. Much of this is paid for by grants that we apply for, some are put in by property owners or other MUD's. Fire departments can also draw water from static water sources including Lake LBJ, swimming pools, and stock tanks.

[Kylfyre]

Countryboy

The ESD can set the rate for what they need to provide the level of service they want.

Example if the ESD decided they wanted to create their own Fire Department and not contract with Granite Shoals they would probably go for the full .10 cents (just a guess) because they don't own anything to start with, but this money would not go the Granite Shoals Fire Department. So I am still not seeing the point of double taxation for county residents.
If they were to contract the services the rate would be probably be lower and in line with what the city residents are paying. But that is between the City providing the Service and the ESD requesting the service to discuss if the ESD is even created.
Given the current situation the Forming of an ESD seems to be the fairest option available to the County Residents. They would get to choose what kind of service and how much they are willing to pay for it. If their answer is 0cents then that is the type of service they should expect to get, if they agree to pay what the city of Granite Shoals Pays then they should get the same service, If they pay more then they should get better service or am I wrong. That is for the County residents to decide, because the City residents already pay for the service.

[Kylfyre]

Wrangler, I forgot to address a point you stated earlier.
You stated
" I don't think that even if an ESD were created that the rating for many rural homeowners will change for quite some time, if ever. Reason being - there still won't be more water sources available than right now, there still won't be more fire apparatus available then right now. Now, give 10 years all that may change but the ESD will collect taxes while the rating probably won't change. In other words, if your rural home is rated a 10 now when GSFD may respond but is too far away and no water sources, merely passing an ESD isn't going to magically make it a 4 rating overnight. These things take time and in some cases never will change since the likelihood of having fire hydrants and a county-wide water system is practically nil.
of yours form earlier"

If you are recieving a PPC rating of a 10 in the Granite Shoals Fire response area you need to stop by the station and pick up the PPC rating form and take it to your insurance company. Depending on your carrier you should see immediate changes in your rate.

Your Insurance can change instantly based on your insurance carrier policies. Lets say you had reported and gave documentation to your insurance company that your area was a PPC rated 4. Later on that year the fire department closes its doors due to lack of funding (not made up this happens all the time) and you do not report this to your insurance company. Later on you have a fire in your house that destroys the roof. Your insurance company can deny your claim as you did not inform them of the situation of the Closed down Fire Department.
Remember Just because you do not have a water system or Hydrants does not mean that your rating will increase. The City of Highland Haven has onlyThree dry hydrants (No pressurized) in the city limits, but due to the preplanning of City of Highland Haven and Granite Shoals Fire Officials, and due to the proximity of the Lake, they were able to demonstrate that they could flow a certain amount of water anywhere in their City. So they were given a PPC rating of a 4 with in the City limits of Highland Haven.

[anony]

Would this vote include residents of GS voting on a product for and taxed to citizens living outside of GS. Sorry if this is addressed but I was unable to glean the answer.

[Frank_Reilly]

GS residents will not be able to vote on the creation of the ESD. Only those living within the proposed district can vote to determine whether to create it, and thus, whether to be taxed by it. The initial board is appointed, but that board cannot set tax rates; it is the board that the voters elect that will set the tax rates and negotiate contracts. The initial appointed board's authority is very limited and only relates to getting an organization set up so that an election can be held. As to the 5 cents vs. 10 cents issue, the 5 cents GS residents pay does not include the already sunk costs GS taxpayers have incurred for all of our trucks, equipment, and the fire hall. And it is disingenuous to assume your newly elected board will vote to tax the full ten cents, which is the statutory maximum that it could tax. Every taxing authority has a limitation in either the statutes or the constitution, and rarely do the entities ever reach that amount. For example, GS has a current tax rate of 44 cents, but the constitution would allow it to tax up to $1.50. When the city charter was approved by an almost 3 to 1 vote in 2005, the naysayers were arguing that the city would jack its tax rate up to $1.50. The city council has not done so, and our tax rate has remained fairly close to what it was in 2005.

[Kylfyre]

First Fire Department areas are established by a Map that includes a Meets and Bounds Legal description. This Meets and Bounds Map includes every property (Cities included) within the Boundaries. Since Burnet County already has Established boundary lines for Fire districts, these are the lines that all of the proposed ESD are using. The Petition can be signed by anyone in the "proposed district" including City of Granite Shoals and City of Highland Haven residents. In order to be able to sign the petition you must be a registered voter in Burnet County and Own property within the proposed district. Once the Petition is accepted by Burnet County Commissioners Court an election is set. Further discussion begin and Mandatory public hearings are established on the District and at this point Cities may decide is they would like to opt out of the ESD if they determine they can provide the service to their residents. Since Granite Shoals already owns the Fire service and citizens pay for the service through city taxes it is very likely that they would opt out of the ESD. Highland Haven could also opt out of the District because they can enter into a contract with the City of Granite Shoals(which they already do) to provide Fire services to their city. Cities are required to provide Basic City Services to Residents including Fire Services, on the other Hand Counties do not have to provide theses services. ESD's can be effected by other cities ETJ Lines. Example The Granite Shoals Fire District has some response area within the Horseshoe Bay ETJ (Wilderness Cove Subdivision), Horseshoe Bay can opt their ETJ areas out of the ESD. This is because if the City annexes a portion of the ESD, they have to incur part of the ESD debt based on the percent of the area the city takes in (Example if the City annexes 10 percent of the budgeted ESD area the city has to pay the ESD 10 percent of their budget . This is a one time deal. But keep in mind that if the City opts their ETJ out of a district, that area will have to find their own Fire service responder at their costs.

SO Cities Can Sign the Petition to Form the ESD, But if they opt out they cannot Vote on its creation. Remember you have to be a registered voter in Burnet County and Own property within the district to sign the petition.
Once the election happens the only ones that can Vote on the Creation of the District are the Folks left in the district within the unincorporated areas and any city that has not opted out of the District.

[Caretaker]

The simplest solution for all those who Expect certain services and dont mind paying for these services is to Just MOVE to where those services are.

[Kylfyre]

This is why it is up to the voters to decide. If a majority of the voters do not think Fire and First Response is not worth paying for ,Then they have the option to vote accordingly. But if enough voters think it is important to have theses services then their voice needs to be heard as well in support of their services.

[Waldo]

The objection is paying more than anyone else for service. Bill me if you come out, I'll pay it. Or charge me the 5 cents that people in GS pay. As far as moving to GS, why move somewhere that is full of druggies and illegals? No thanks, I'd rather use my garden hose, and I might have to but I've got a great well.

[tonigking]

Waldo, What a hateful, biggoted, uninformed and untrue statement to make.
People like you don't deserve to enjoy the services of this City.
But you know what ? if your house is on fire I''ll bet you would be plenty happy to see our terrific Fire Dept. roll up!
Except it won't be there, because people like you don't want to pay your fair share and more, like we have all these years. :banghead:

[countryboy]

Waldo, What a hateful, biggoted, uninformed and untrue statement to make.
People like you don't deserve to enjoy the services of this City.
But you know what ? if your house is on fire I''ll bet you would be plenty happy to see our terrific Fire Dept. roll up!
Except it won't be there, because people like you don't want to pay your fair share and more, like we have all these years. :banghead:

Wow wow back up that horse.Just what was Hateful,biggoted,uninformed or untrue about what Waldo stated?. You want to elaborate on that.

And as far as "fair share " which everyone keeps spouting off about. If it was fair share everyone would pay the same amount. And I,m not talking about "claiming" the set Rate per 100 is fair share.ITs Not.. I,m talking each home would pay 25 30 35 or what ever. That would be fair share.But Oh no they want to base it on ones percieved assessed value that the Taxing appraiser says its worth. IS that fair NO.

[Kylfyre]

OK, Lets Slow Down and keep to the point.

Waldo
The points you bring up are not just Granite Shoals Problems, they are County problems as well. And I agree there are some issues, but I do believe that through the Granite Shoals Police Dept and city programs like the City Wide Clean up, Parks Committees, and community volunteers that image is being changed for the better.

Countryboy.
Reading your posts, I get the fact that you do not like taxes, especially based on property taxes to fund an ESD. I understand your point. But respectfully disagree that the system is not fair. It,s not perfect, but it is FAIR.

The main argument most people have about taxes is that the rate they pay is not the same as everyone else's rate because their property values are different. Example Let's say you have a Million dollar appraised home on Lake LBJ. At 5 cents per hundred your ESD rate would by $500 a year.
Another property owner has a non lake front property valued at 60K. So their ESD tax rate at 5 cents would be $30 a year How is this fair? Well lets talk about manpower and equipment need to fight a fire at each one of these houses. A million dollar home would take far more resources to handle a fire at this type of residence, depending on size and number of rooms your talking several trucks, more fire hoses, more people, equipment, ect , therefore more costs involved in handling and emergency will be incurred. Most lakefront homes have boathouses that pose additional fire department rescue needs for water rescues, boat fires ect, not to mention the additional boat house structures themselves, adding another potential stucture to protect. All of this costs money. And if you have a larger property with more "potential emergency scenerios" more money should be paid so that local responders can be prepared to handle your emergency before it occurs. The same fire in a 60k dollar home does not necessary pose as many resource challenge, less apparatus, less number of equipment means less costs therefore, should not need to pay more.

[countryboy]

OK, Lets Slow Down and keep to the point.

Waldo
The points you bring up are not just Granite Shoals Problems, they are County problems as well. And I agree there are some issues, but I do believe that through the Granite Shoals Police Dept and city programs like the City Wide Clean up, Parks Committees, and community volunteers that image is being changed for the better.

Countryboy.
Reading your posts, I get the fact that you do not like taxes, especially based on property taxes to fund an ESD. I understand your point. But respectfully disagree that the system is not fair. It,s not perfect, but it is FAIR.

The main argument most people have about taxes is that the rate they pay is not the same as everyone else's rate because their property values are different. Example Let's say you have a Million dollar appraised home on Lake LBJ. At 5 cents per hundred your ESD rate would by $500 a year.
Another property owner has a non lake front property valued at 60K. So their ESD tax rate at 5 cents would be $30 a year How is this fair? Well lets talk about manpower and equipment need to fight a fire at each one of these houses. A million dollar home would take far more resources to handle a fire at this type of residence, depending on size and number of rooms your talking several trucks, more fire hoses, more people, equipment, ect , therefore more costs involved in handling and emergency will be incurred. Most lakefront homes have boathouses that pose additional fire department rescue needs for water rescues, boat fires ect, not to mention the additional boat house structures themselves, adding another potential stucture to protect. All of this costs money. And if you have a larger property with more "potential emergency scenerios" more money should be paid so that local responders can be prepared to handle your emergency before it occurs. The same fire in a 60k dollar home does not necessary pose as many resource challenge, less apparatus, less number of equipment means less costs therefore, should not need to pay more.

Lets see you left out several other factors in your "fair share" calculation. You are comparing City propertys to County propertys.Or Non City. There are county propertys that only have a small Home on them but have Land thats taxed higher then the home that sits on it.Are you claiming it would take more resources to put out a fire on that small home based on its overall assessed value.. Do the math on that scenerio.

As far as Taxes go. I dont hate all taxes.The two that I,m against the most are Property and Income taxes. Property taxes discourage prosperity for many people.Were is ones incentive to grow if all they have to look forward to is more property taxes.

Take a look at the water district. That tax is based on assessed value as well. Should the guy fortunate enough to own that million dollar home have to more in taxes even though he may not use any more water?

Same with schools taxes.Same scenerio.. Who gets the most education??

Road tax as well. Does the "perceived" richer man drive more or use those roads more?

[Kylfyre]

'I am sure I did leave out some factors in the calculation. I am not comparing city to county properties, I compared a 1 Mill dollar property to a 60K property. Another item not mentioned are agriculture exemptions on large non developed properties. An ESD wold receive very little taxes on large tracts of land that have these exemptions but many times require large number of resources during a grass/brush fires.
Like I said before It's not a perfect system, but it is fair.

If you have a dispute over your land or property values, there are channels to take to challenge these figures. As far as school, road and water taxes, those are separate taxing issues that do not involve or affect the creation or Forming of an ESD. As a matter of fact an ESD unlike the previous mentioned taxes are voted on by the taxpayers of the district. Even the rate is set by the people that are being taxed. Can you say the same for school taxes, roads ect. Many people in the county that voted the ESD down did not understand that fire services from Granite Shoals may be suspended if the Fire Services are not paid for. Many assumed that they would be covered under "Mutual Aid". But like I said before Mutual Aid is not "Automatic Aid". Many just saw "another tax" and just voted no. So at their request it is being readdressed to assure that they have an opportunity to be more involved and get more information regarding their decision. Many of the rural fire departments in Burnet County have formed their ESD to fund their Fire Departments services and have seen very good benefits to their community. If one does not want the ESD then cast you vote in May, but I encourage you to weigh all the pro's and Cons for the district beforehand and not to just dismiss it as "Just another tax"

[Frank_Reilly]

GS residents effectively pay more than 5 cents of their property tax rates for fire protection; the calculation that the Chief has provided is just the cost to operate and maintain existing levels of service and doesn't include prior sunk costs of equipment and the fire station. Further, don't assume that the ESD board that you elect will decide to charge the full 10 cents -- they will be taxpayers too. Finally, if you don't like the property tax system (and very few people do), talk to your state legislators. They're the ones that have created that system, and it's the only one that ESDs can use unless the legislature changes the law.

[Caretaker]

GS residents effectively pay more than 5 cents of their property tax rates for fire protection; the calculation that the Chief has provided is just the cost to operate and maintain existing levels of service and doesn't include prior sunk costs of equipment and the fire station. Further, don't assume that the ESD board that you elect will decide to charge the full 10 cents -- they will be taxpayers too. Finally, if you don't like the property tax system (and very few people do), talk to your state legislators. They're the ones that have created that system, and it's the only one that ESDs can use unless the legislature changes the law.

Mr Mayor.You just said the ESD board will make the decision on the rate Right?? The chief stated before that the voters would set the rate.Which is it?

[Kylfyre]

Remember that anyone on the ESD Board must own property in the ESD district and be a registered voter.

An ESD may adopt an interim budget at least until the start of the first full fiscal year, but generally no newly-created ESD will have funds until the following fiscal year. A budget is required before adopting a property tax rate, and each newly-created ESD should consult with its emergency services providers, the county, and other districts to determine the needs of its service providers, the provision of services until tax revenue is available to the ESD, as well as the experience of other entities located in the county to assist in determining the appropriate initial tax rate of the ESD. It should be noted that public hearings are not required, but may be appropriate before an ESD adopts its initial tax rate. Thereafter, the ESD will be required to follow the applicable Truth in Taxation statutes and regulations in adopting any subsequent tax rates, including notices, publication of notices, and public hearings. No funds should be expended by the ESD or it’s contracted emergency services providers unless they are provided for in a budget adopted by the ESD and its contracted emergency services providers, except in an emergency. The ESD has a limited ability to borrow money in order to have funds until the first tax revenues are collected, and legal counsel should be consulted.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Kylfyre]

Here is an informative link to how an ESD is created and how they work
http://www.safe-d.org/pdf/esd_operating_guide_2008.pdf

[countryboy]

GS residents effectively pay more than 5 cents of their property tax rates for fire protection; the calculation that the Chief has provided is just the cost to operate and maintain existing levels of service and doesn't include prior sunk costs of equipment and the fire station. Further, don't assume that the ESD board that you elect will decide to charge the full 10 cents -- they will be taxpayers too. Finally, if you don't like the property tax system (and very few people do), talk to your state legislators. They're the ones that have created that system, and it's the only one that ESDs can use unless the legislature changes the law.


I for one dont like the property tax system and do talk to the state legislature. Most dont care what the people want as a whole.Thats been shown time and time again.If they want the people heard did it would go to a referendum vote to have the actual voters decide it.Not these reps.I understand thats what you are trying to do with this ESD as well. But It was voted down once.
As far an incoming board. They may not start out with the highest rate but it will end up that way.Everything is done in increments so no one is the wiser.Its common place in this country.

[fireman]

Countryboy
You are obviously against the tax of an ESD. Are you against the ESD or is is just the tax you are against. Do you really not want to have a fire department responding to your needs, or do you just not want to pay for that service?

[Waldo]

In order for this to really be fair then people that own property and responsible for taxes should be able to vote on this specific issue when they are registered voters elsewhere. Many people own property in hopes of retiring here as well as having second home here. I have an issue with large properties with ag exemptions as well, some of those grass fires are horrific.

I am not against the ESD... I am against inequality.

[countryboy]

Countryboy
You are obviously against the tax of an ESD. Are you against the ESD or is is just the tax you are against. Do you really not want to have a fire department responding to your needs, or do you just not want to pay for that service?


I am against any Tax that is Levied against ones property period.

As far as a fire department responding to my needs.I personally have not ever had to call for help.. Now I have gone and helped distant neighbors.like a Volunteer might do.
You seem to think I am against FDs in general. If I was then I would not have sent in donations from time to time to the VFD.

Also When I moved to the countryside, I KNEW that I would NOT be getting the same Services that those in the citys come to Expect..If I was worried about bad things happening and thought I would be any safer or might be any more protected by having these things I would move back into a city.

Another thing. ESD means ( Emergency Services District). That does include Ambulances does it not?. If i pay a tax would I still be charged for an Ambulance ride if the need arises??

[Kylfyre]

This ESD does not include Ambulance Service, as that is a separate entity. But it does include Emergency First Response, (First Aid, AED,Car Accident response, CPR, patient stabilization, ect) The Granite Shoals Fire department responds to medical assistance calls with Certified EMT's and Community First Responders to assist the ambulance crews and alot of times provides initial care until an with a qualified Paramedic arrives on scene.

[fireman]

Country boy
Good I am glad to hear your pro fire department. I understand being against Taxes and that being the resaon you choose to live in the county is to get away from the taxes. Unfortunatly the county you pay taxes into does not have the resources to provide you and your neighbors fire service. You sound like you are able bodied ( you volunteer to help your neighbors) Maybe you would make a great chief for your new volunteer fire department in your area. All you need is apparatus, equiptment, personell, and a way to raise $ to put fuel in your trucks. Easy enough right? Since you don't want to pay for any service this is an option, or you could always just go without and hope your neighbor is home and willing to come help you the way you helped him.

Waldo
I agree that any property owner should be able to vote on the ESD decision. Maybe in the future something will change.

[countryboy]

Country boy
Good I am glad to hear your pro fire department. I understand being against Taxes and that being the resaon you choose to live in the county is to get away from the taxes. Unfortunatly the county you pay taxes into does not have the resources to provide you and your neighbors fire service. You sound like you are able bodied ( you volunteer to help your neighbors) Maybe you would make a great chief for your new volunteer fire department in your area. All you need is apparatus, equiptment, personell, and a way to raise $ to put fuel in your trucks. Easy enough right? Since you don't want to pay for any service this is an option, or you could always just go without and hope your neighbor is home and willing to come help you the way you helped him.


Thats right.The county does not have the resources to provide me with fire service. But Like I said, I knew what or what was NOT available when I moved to the country.It was MY choice.And the times I donated money to VFDs,I did so because I made the Choice to donate, NOT because I was forced to..
As far as hoping a neighbor is willing to help me if things go bad. If they do swell,If they dont I aint gonna cry about.Its their Choice.I ask nothing of no one else and I Dont expect anything from anyone else.

[toy1985]

great discussion. if this is on the ballot this year, hopefully common sense will prevail again and the citizens of the county will vote it down again. now, for an example of the unchecked power of a newly created esd - go talk to someone in the cassie subdivision and see how much they like their esd and its obamalike spending policies. btw, there are elected positions on the esd, but the most important ones are appointed.

[Kylfyre]

Comparing one fire service to another is an inaccurate way of determining if an ESD is a good or a bad thing. What works in one community might not be good for another and vice-versa. You need to determine what will happen if the ESD is turned down and what would happen to you current services if they are not funded, versus paying fair and equal value for Fire services that the residents pay for, that is the bottom line. City residents should not need to subsidize city services for county or other city residents that don't want to pay for it. Like I said before " If you pay nothing for Fire and rescue service then that's the services that should be expected" And keep in mind the ESD does not have to contract with the City of Granite Shoals if they are not happy with the services, but would have the funds to either fund another department of form another "New" Department.

[Caretaker]

heres a quote that is oh so true;;

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him..

That was from an American writer.

[Kylfyre]

Here's some more as well

A person doesn't know how much he has to be thankful for until he has to pay taxes on it. ~Author Unknown

or

A fine is a tax for doing something wrong. A tax is a fine for doing something right. Author Unknown

or

"If you pay nothing for Fire and rescue service then that's the services that should be expected"

This is not about forcing you for paying for fire service, this has been brought up because there are many in the community that understand if they want fire and rescue services then they need to pay for it.

Paying for fire service is not tyrannical. It's good common sense.

[Waldo]

Once again I would like to point out that the problem many people have is that those that would find themselves in ESD 3 will not pay the same as those in Granite Shoals for the same service. They will pay substantially more. There is nothing that is fair about that and KYLFYRE needs to quit referring to it being the fair thing to do. Is this meant to be punitive because you think they need to make up for the years you think they've been receiving "free service"? That is the way this is perceived.

[Kylfyre]

Waldo, your statement is true and happening now except People in the City of Granite Shoals are not paying the same as /county residents for the same services, they pay substantially more. All I am suggesting is County residents if they want the service need to pay for it.
If the Granite Shoals Residents pay 5 cents per 100 eval and the esd pays 5 cents per 100 (Remember the ESD sets their own rate) how is that not fair? What is happening now is not fair ( the city pays about 5 cents per 1900 and the county residents donate which is about $1000 per year total) Burnet county does pay a flat fee of $23,000 that all county residents pay to cover unincorporated areas and mutual aid responses. So either an ESD get put into place and taxes the equal amount the city pays for fire services or the City will pull its services. Is it fair that city residents subsidize their tax dollars to provide services to County Residents. Marble Falls, Burnet, and Horseshoe Bay would and do not do this. Why should Granite Shoals. Tell me what you think is fair.

[countryboy]

A fine is a tax for doing something wrong. A tax is a fine for doing something right. Author Unknown[/FONT]


Wrong. A fine is only a Revenue source for most municipalitys or goverment entitys and they are imposed upon unsuspecting people that have committed no REAL crimes.AKA Victim less crimes.

And a tax cannot be a fine if it comes before committing any victim less crime.

IMO If that quote was of any credibilty the Authors name would be well known.Who ever wrote it was probably a communist,fascist,socialist.

[countryboy]

Waldo, your statement is true and happening now except People in the City of Granite Shoals are not paying the same as /county residents for the same services, they pay substantially more. All I am suggesting is County residents if they want the service need to pay for it.
If the Granite Shoals Residents pay 5 cents per 100 eval and the esd pays 5 cents per 100 (Remember the ESD sets their own rate) how is that not fair? What is happening now is not fair ( the city pays about 5 cents per 1900 and the county residents donate which is about $1000 per year total) Burnet county does pay a flat fee of $23,000 that all county residents pay to cover unincorporated areas and mutual aid responses. So either an ESD get put into place and taxes the equal amount the city pays for fire services or the City will pull its services. Is it fair that city residents subsidize their tax dollars to provide services to County Residents. Marble Falls, Burnet, and Horseshoe Bay would and do not do this. Why should Granite Shoals. Tell me what you think is fair.

You are Assuming the esd will have the same rate of 5 per 100 /5 per 100.. But theres NO guarantee. Also if the county is already paying for mutual aid then that 23,000 should be sent back to the tax payers once or If an ESD gets formed. If not then its Double taxation..
And you state; So Either an ESD gets put into place and TAXES the EQUAL amount the city pays for fire sevices or the City will pull its services. Well Whats EQUAL?

[Kylfyre]

Country boy, I have assumed nothing. I have stated what the Granite Shoals residents pay for their services per 100, I have then stated that this rate should be the same for the county residents, yes the ESD can set the rate from 1 to 10 cents but that is up to them, and with input from the county residents. As to the value once again, I don't set those rates and they will vary from property to property, but a 100,000 home in the city at 5 cents per 100 would be the same as a county home at 5 cents per 100. Does everyone pay equal amounts, no, but that is because of their value of the property. But this is how the city residents pay for services, so if County residents want the same service they need pay for just as city residents pay for it. If you can think of a better way please share your ideas. An ESD is what the State of Texas allows, per their Law.

In regards to the County funds, that is a mute point because the ESD is not created yet. If an ESD is created it will be addressed at that point once a new contract is created.

[Waldo]

Kylfyre had "suggested" a budget last time around and theoretically the only way that 200,000,00 plus budget would be met was with a rate of at least eight cents per 100. Is Granite Shoals open to a subscription rate at five cents per valuation, why isn't Granite Shoals billing for calls outside the city? Seems like a good revenue source. Doesn't the city then have the right to impose liens and even foreclose on non payers? Time to think outside the ESD box.

[Caretaker]

Kylfyre had "suggested" a budget last time around and theoretically the only way that 200,000,00 plus budget would be met was with a rate of at least eight cents per 100. Is Granite Shoals open to a subscription rate at five cents per valuation, why isn't Granite Shoals billing for calls outside the city? Seems like a good revenue source. Doesn't the city then have the right to impose liens and even foreclose on non payers? Time to think outside the ESD box.


Billing would only work if GS knew who started a fire.Are you gonna bill someone who did not start the fire?.Just suppose there happens to be two propertys owners minding there own buisness and are not home and some yahoo idiot decides to flip a lit cigarette out his window along the road side next to these two propertys.The wind picks up and gets flames rushing onto their propertys. Whose fault is it??Should they be foreclosed on because of someone elses negligence?.

[Waldo]

Oh please, I'm saying that if the dept. responds to something that involves me, accident, fire, health crisis that I am more than willing to pay, or subscribe or contract... I am just not willing to pay more than anyone else for the same service.

[Kylfyre]

The Granite Shoals Fire department does bill for certain calls. This is a new service that we have a company do for us. Only at fault fire and rescue calls are billed. For example a vehicle accident may have a billable response if a driver broke the law,( IE speeding, running a light ect). A call report is made and the billing company sends a bill to the at fault parties insurance company. If there is no insurance we receive nothing. Same goes for structure fires, if someone sets their house on fire they may be billed for the response. Billing is not cheap. The party is billed per hour per Firefighter/rescuer,equipment use per hour and any damages to equipment for replacement items. It can run several hundred to thousands of dollars based on the call type. So intent and fault need to be determined prior to billing. Acts of nature, no fault rescues and fires and Medical Calls are not billed by the Granite Shoals Fire Department.
Keep in mind the Granite Shoals Fire Department does not bill for services to make money, but to recoup costs by individuals who cause unnecessary call responses due to their own negligence or violation of the law. Billing for calls does not work to create a stable workable budget because no one can predict how many responses you will have in the following months nor can you predict how many "Bills" will even be paid once submitted. The Fire department should not be placed in a position of deciding who paid for service and who did not and adjusting their responses accordingly. They should be given a "reasonable and overseen" budget based on their Mission, the services they provide, and level of care the community wants. But this is an entirely different discussion.

[toy1985]

back that up a little kylfire - if you can bill an auto insurance company because of your response to an accident, you should be able to bill insurance companies for fire calls to homes or property. this might make my homeowners policy go up in dollars, but i would rather pay into an insurance policy VOLUNTARILY than be forced to pay for services i hope i never have to use. as far as not being paid for your services - welcome to the world of free enterprise and capitalism. people will always take advantage of your services or the system - no matter the circumstance. by the way you are in the PUBLIC SERVICE sector.

[Kylfyre]

Toy1985 I am the Fire Chief for the City of Granite Shoals so yes I am in the public sector.
As I stated we can bill "At Fault" Drivers insurance as well as "at fault"fires through homeowners insurance policies. Keep in mind they must have insurance first of all to bill if they do not we receive nothing. Insurance billing is designed to recoup losses from "At Fault" citizens that cause unneeded responses. Taxes keep the fire department trained, equipped and supplied to respond to all hazards and emergencies it is asked to preform. If we had to rely on billing to re-pay for services already rendered it would take several calls to have enough money to operate. It would result in not having money to train and equip Firefighters to be "Prepared" for an emergency. We would become bill collectors asking for money from individuals when they have had a devastating loss in their life. The fire department needs to receive a budget so that we can have the tools, training and support in-place prior to emergencies before they happen. Billing insurance should be viewed as a "supplemental" income to recoup losses incurred by the fire department for violation of the law (Ie Arson, At fault Vehicle collisions). Also keep in mind that everyone does not have insurance and collection rates for billing are not guaranteed.

Also paying for insurance in most cases is not "Voluntary" as you previously stated.

The Bottom line is this if you want to continue with your current fire rescue services, they need to be paid for. The City will not subsidize services they pay for with their taxes to cover residents that don't want to pay for it. So if you do not want the tax then there will be no service. I'm sorry to be so blunt but that's your decision. Since ESD's can be voted on by the county residents it is up to you but you really need to look at all the sides of this and do your research.

1. How much are money per year will an ESD cost me at different rates?
2. What is my current insurance rate and will it change if my Fire Department Changes?
3. What Fire department will cover me if Granite Shoals Does not and how far away are their stations and service?
4. What current services, staffing levels, training and equipment does the Granite Shoals Fire Department Have?
5. What current services, staffing levels, training and equipment do the other fire departments have?
6. Will another Fire department Cover us if Granite Shoals Does not? If so what will they charge?

[Kylfyre]

Oh dear Country Boy... Perhaps you should grab a Webster's and look up the term "tax", as it has more than one meaning. For example: "His ignorance and stubborn narrow minded viewpoint was taxing her patience, to say the least." Taxes (as folks usually think of them) are monetary as was the intent of the posted quotes.... but sir, they are INDEED correctly defined above according to all the educational resources we all have access to. There are many forms of "taxing". The previous post was meant to open minds a bit on this subject, apparently things need to be explained in simpler terms for some. My apologies if this is at all confusing.

Bottom line is, this service either will or will not be rendered to certain county residents. Whether or not this pertains to you at all is irrelevant. Taxing will happen. Whether it's for fire service, schools, county or city- it will continue. Of course, nobody wants any more yearly dues, but when there is an emergency and a quick response available, it sure is appreciated. I'd say just as much from those who DO pay for the service as those who do NOT. I am more than sure you can appreciate that simple fact. Nobody wants to have a cardiac arrest when there are available defibrillators moments away! How much is THAT worth?! There is no price on a life. I do not care what anyone tries to argue on that! Why does this not make sense? It is very clear and very understandable!

Why so quick to respond with literary corrections before educating oneself on the meaning of the term being subjected here? The proposition of new tax is NEVER met with open arms, but the lack of due remittance to emergency services upon said services rendered has to end. The support for this proposition continues to grow, regardless of the few ignorant folks who only want to find an argument and make attempts at correcting those who clearly do know the subject matter being discussed and have credibility on such subject matter.


Now, if you have a valid concern or question that I can assist you in clarifying, relevant to this forum, feel free to consult and I will be pleased to assist you in understanding.


Good day and God bless!
Sincerely,
Kylfyre's wife & local Medical Professional

P.S. My husband was NOT Wrong, sir! With any/ all due respect: You just need to "hear the meaning in the words"~ Sir William Shakespear- (noted author), and get all the facts before an attempt at a definitive or grammatical correction.

Thank you kindly, and again, Blessings to you and yours.

[Kylfyre]

Wrong. A fine is only a Revenue source for most municipalitys or goverment entitys and they are imposed upon unsuspecting people that have committed no REAL crimes.AKA Victim less crimes.

And a tax cannot be a fine if it comes before committing any victim less crime.

IMO If that quote was of any credibilty the Authors name would be well known.Who ever wrote it was probably a communist,fascist,socialist.
last post was in response to this ^. Just to clarify.

[countryboy]

Oh dear Country Boy... Perhaps you should grab a Webster's and look up the term "tax", as it has more than one meaning. For example: "His ignorance and stubborn narrow minded viewpoint was taxing her patience, to say the least." Taxes (as folks usually think of them) are monetary as was the intent of the posted quotes.... but sir, they are INDEED correctly defined above according to all the educational resources we all have access to. There are many forms of "taxing". The previous post was meant to open minds a bit on this subject, apparently things need to be explained in simpler terms for some. My apologies if this is at all confusing.

Bottom line is, this service either will or will not be rendered to certain county residents. Whether or not this pertains to you at all is irrelevant. Taxing will happen. Whether it's for fire service, schools, county or city- it will continue. Of course, nobody wants any more yearly dues, but when there is an emergency and a quick response available, it sure is appreciated. I'd say just as much from those who DO pay for the service as those who do NOT. I am more than sure you can appreciate that simple fact. Nobody wants to have a cardiac arrest when there are available defibrillators moments away! How much is THAT worth?! There is no price on a life. I do not care what anyone tries to argue on that! Why does this not make sense? It is very clear and very understandable!

Why so quick to respond with literary corrections before educating oneself on the meaning of the term being subjected here? The proposition of new tax is NEVER met with open arms, but the lack of due remittance to emergency services upon said services rendered has to end. The support for this proposition continues to grow, regardless of the few ignorant folks who only want to find an argument and make attempts at correcting those who clearly do know the subject matter being discussed and have credibility on such subject matter.


Now, if you have a valid concern or question that I can assist you in clarifying, relevant to this forum, feel free to consult and I will be pleased to assist you in understanding.


Good day and God bless!
Sincerely,
Kylfyre's wife & local Medical Professional

P.S. My husband was NOT Wrong, sir! With any/ all due respect: You just need to "hear the meaning in the words"~ Sir William Shakespear- (noted author), and get all the facts before an attempt at a definitive or grammatical correction.

Thank you kindly, and again, Blessings to you and yours.


Oh dear Lady.Perhaps YOU should use the proper Tax term when making a point. The example that you quoted is symantics in the least.. It is NOT monetary.(Even though the Wifey pooh may have gotten mad)..Taxing ones Property is Monetary.Taxing ones Patience is Not.My comments were to Open peoples mind too.And My apologies if My statements are confusing to you as well.

And Yes I am aware just like many others are aware that these services may or may not happen.If they vote the ESD down they made the Choice. And Yes taxing in one form or another will continue. But IMO taxing via a property tax is Not the route to go.And it should be eliminated Altogether.And I will keep fighting to have them eliminated.All the while pushing to have everything go only to sales Taxes.

As far as assuming those who oppose the ESD are Ignorant.It failed last time around did it not? Are you suggesting those who voted it down were Ignorant as well?.

And quite frankly If I need consulting I will ask my preacher,Family or those whom I know or do my own thinking.

Thank you kindly and may the good spirits be with you.

[txfirefighter]

Oh dear Lady.Perhaps YOU should use the proper Tax term when making a point. The example that you quoted is symantics in the least.. It is NOT monetary.(Even though the Wifey pooh may have gotten mad)..Taxing ones Property is Monetary.Taxing ones Patience is Not.My comments were to Open peoples mind too.And My apologies if My statements are confusing to you as well.

And Yes I am aware just like many others are aware that these services may or may not happen.If they vote the ESD down they made the Choice. And Yes taxing in one form or another will continue. But IMO taxing via a property tax is Not the route to go.And it should be eliminated Altogether.And I will keep fighting to have them eliminated.All the while pushing to have everything go only to sales Taxes.

As far as assuming those who oppose the ESD are Ignorant.It failed last time around did it not? Are you suggesting those who voted it down were Ignorant as well?.

And quite frankly If I need consulting I will ask my preacher,Family or those whom I know or do my own thinking.

Thank you kindly and may the good spirits be with you.
I am a fan of ESD's and the services they provide at what I consider to be a minimal cost to the citizens involved. I am not the biggest fan of property tax either but the thought that funding emergency services or any other aspect of local, county or state services base strictly on sales tax is itself absurd. If that were the case I'd assume the way of the future to fund your local fire department's services would be to attach a credit card machine to the pump panel of the fire engine that is there to put out your house fire...so that you must swipe a credit card and be charged a sales tax for each gallon of water used to extinguish the fire... Hope the card is valid... Or place the credit card machine on the back of the ambulance to bill prior to being able to get inside and be transported to the hospital to have your broken leg fixed from the car wreck you suffered.

Taxes, unfortunately, are a necessary evil in our economy and I expect that it will be that way as long as I am alive.

Here's is a post that has been floating around popular social websites that I think makes an excellent point on how people need to start helping their local emergency responders... It really doesn't cost that much.

"On average, homeowners pay $1.36 a day to fund a full time Fire Department including salaries and benefits. If you have a smart phone you pay on average $3.33 a day for your phone. That phone won't save your life, perform CPR, protect your property, transport you to the hospital in an emergency, etc. Copy and paste to your status and encourage everyone to support their local Firefighters!"

I do not know where the statistical data came from but I believe it to be fairly close to accurate for the average property owner, based on my personal finances.

Good Luck to the citizens of Burnet County and the Granite Shoals FD.

[Waldo]

I would gladly pay $10 per day, I will not pay $50. which is where I'd be with that 10 cent per hundred of valuation. There is nothing fair about that. There are no limits on the valuation, there are no caps for retired people on a fixed income. There are many ranches in the area proposed with huge ag exemptions, how is that fair?

[Caretaker]

I am a fan of ESD's and the services they provide at what I consider to be a minimal cost to the citizens involved. I am not the biggest fan of property tax either but the thought that funding emergency services or any other aspect of local, county or state services base strictly on sales tax is itself absurd. If that were the case I'd assume the way of the future to fund your local fire department's services would be to attach a credit card machine to the pump panel of the fire engine that is there to put out your house fire...so that you must swipe a credit card and be charged a sales tax for each gallon of water used to extinguish the fire... Hope the card is valid... Or place the credit card machine on the back of the ambulance to bill prior to being able to get inside and be transported to the hospital to have your broken leg fixed from the car wreck you suffered.


Taxes, unfortunately, are a necessary evil in our economy and I expect that it will be that way as long as I am alive..

Here's is a post that has been floating around popular social websites that I think makes an excellent point on how people need to start helping their local emergency responders... It really doesn't cost that much.

"On average, homeowners pay $1.36 a day to fund a full time Fire Department including salaries and benefits. If you have a smart phone you pay on average $3.33 a day for your phone. That phone won't save your life, perform CPR, protect your property, transport you to the hospital in an emergency, etc. Copy and paste to your status and encourage everyone to support their local Firefighters!"

I do not know where the statistical data came from but I believe it to be fairly close to accurate for the average property owner, based on my personal finances.

Good Luck to the citizens of Burnet County and the Granite Shoals FD.




Alot of people have researched the issue of Funding using a sales tax only model. And Yes it can be funded with a sales tax only system. To many people blow off the idea because they have been brainwashed by goverment propoganda or the have never looked at stats.Sales taxes could or would bring in more money.It would also help keep entitys in check when it comes to budgets and over spending on pet projects..

Taxes in general IMO are evil but to run the basic services (which even I know)you have to have the funding. Everyone knows that.BUT putting it the Backs of the Property owners who are at the discretion of the County appraisers or the Entitys who at a whim can vote to raise the rates is wrong. Thats Communism 101.

As far as that explination floating around.
( It says to Fund the Department Including Salaries and Benefits.)What that says to me is get rid of Volunteers and pay permanent FFs alot and give them Lots of benefits.

It says(that phone wont save your life) Definately wrong on that one.Look at how many folks have used that PHONE to call 911.You could actually think of that phone as a first responder depending on how ones perception is.
It says(Wont perform CPR.)Thats true but thats why CPR is encouraged for folks to learn it.And if more did that i think more lives could be saved.
(Protect your Property)The First line of protection of ones Property is ones own self.
(Transport one to the Hospital.)Isnt that what an amublance is for?

PS that average is 496.4.

[Caretaker]

I would gladly pay $10 per day, I will not pay $50. which is where I'd be with that 10 cent per hundred of valuation. There is nothing fair about that. There are no limits on the valuation, there are no caps for retired people on a fixed income. There are many ranches in the area proposed with huge ag exemptions, how is that fair?


Waldo. I agree with your take on this about the no limits on valuation (because any home owner is at the discretion of the appraiser and each entity). And no caps for retired people(Over 65 needs to have theirs stopped.They have paid enough to last along time)). And with The ag exemptions( thats so over abused by some landowners and developers alike.Some land owners dont raise anything but still get the exemption because it goes unchecked. developers get land that has the exemption so they can hold on too it cheaply until its time to develop.They Taxman can charge them Rollback taxes for 3-5 years if the exemption stops, but they dont have to do that. Sometimes it gets waived inleu of Future larger taxes from being developed.

PS. You dont want to pay 10 a day since there is 365 days a year.But then again 50 x 365 either....

[Kylfyre]

I am not understanding where the inflated numbers are coming from. 10 dollars a day?
The Maximum rate allowed by Texas State Law is 10 cents per 100 evaluation.
So
a 75,000 home and property at 10 cents is 75($75)dollars per year or 20 cents per day.
a 100,000 home and property at 10 cents is 1 hundred ($100) dollars per year or 27 cents per day.
a 250,000 home and property at 10 cents is 2 hundred and fifty ($250) dollars per year or 68 cents per day.
a 500,000 home and property at 10 cents is 5 hundred ($500) dollars per year or $1.36 per day
a 1,000,000 home and property at 10 cents is 1 thousand ($1000) dollars per year or $2.72 per day

This is the Maximum tax allowed based on different values.
What we are proposing is less than the 10 cents per hundred maximum for services.

The ESD board sets the rate, remember they are property owners in the district as well,. The Maximum by state law they can set it is at 10 cents per 100 per year.

Once the ESD is formed they can set a sales tax rate to increase funds, but that has to be voted on as well as any increases to the original set tax rate. They cannot change the rate at their own whim. Example. If the ESD sets the rate at 5 cents per 100 evaluation for the year, then decides they want to change the rate, there would need to be a vote in a general election to do this. Land evaluations are different as the ESD does not evaluate property values, the Land Appraisal office does.

Wow at 10 dollars a day times 365 days, that's $3650 dollars a year per resident. That is way to much and not the case. Its closer to 1 dollar a day in most cases

And the entire point of this ESD is not to Hire Fire Fighters to replace volunteers. Our department has an excellent pool of Paid and Volunteer Firefighters, Why would I want to replace a workforce that is willing to serve their community whenever called and perform necessary rescue, emergency operations, and public service. Believe me I am "Pro- Firefighter" Not pro paid or pro Volunteer. Our Department Has both Paid and Volunteer Firefighter that share Job duties. Our Firefighters (Both paid and Volunteer) preform these duties because it's what they want to do. Part time Paid Firefighters are needed to cover the district during hours of the day in which not as many volunteers can respond due to their normal full time job requirements. I do not consider our Volunteers to be just "Volunteers" They have assignments, job descriptions, evaluations, training requirements, and job expectations. Volunteers are not "Free" Labor. Training of our Firefighters takes money. Equipping them with Proper Protective equipment takes money. No they do not get a pay check, but they are professionals. An ESD would provide funds to improve services, staffing, training and equipment to better serve the Community.
Please Visit our website to see our Fire department www.gsfd.us (http://www.gsfd.us).
We currently have 30 Volunteer Fire fighters, 6 Part Time Paid Firefighters that work 8am-5pm, and 1 Full time Fire Chief

[Fyrewyfe]

Oh dear Lady.Perhaps YOU should use the proper Tax term when making a point. The example that you quoted is symantics in the least.. It is NOT monetary.(Even though the Wifey pooh may have gotten mad)..Taxing ones Property is Monetary.Taxing ones Patience is Not.My comments were to Open peoples mind too.And My apologies if My statements are confusing to you as well.

And Yes I am aware just like many others are aware that these services may or may not happen.If they vote the ESD down they made the Choice. And Yes taxing in one form or another will continue. But IMO taxing via a property tax is Not the route to go.And it should be eliminated Altogether.And I will keep fighting to have them eliminated.All the while pushing to have everything go only to sales Taxes.

As far as assuming those who oppose the ESD are Ignorant.It failed last time around did it not? Are you suggesting those who voted it down were Ignorant as well?.

And quite frankly If I need consulting I will ask my preacher,Family or those whom I know or do my own thinking.

Thank you kindly and may the good spirits be with you.

Wifey Pooh ain't mad! Hillbilly child needs to reread if it seems so....hmmmm....mad? No, sorry to disappoint. :)

Okay country boy, to be completely serious here..... yes the esd prop was voted down and that is why this post forum was created. For information that may have not been understood or clarified in time, the first go- round. Would this even affect you where you live? Or do just like to blast on posts and enjoy debate? You seem to just want to debate without good cause or reason. The meaning of the word TAX really isn't a big deal- we all understand what taxes are, although many here have the numbers way wrong. My point was that you were criticizing my husbands quotes and injecting different opinions of them, when his quotes were not incorrect, nor were they debatable, they were just quotes!

The type of reply you posted wasn't necessary, my husband is a great guy who is simply trying to find a way to better the services offered to all they are offered to, in a FAIR and EQUAL manner. Am I missing something here? Why is that a bad thing?!?!

Anyhow, I sure hope your family and/ or preacher is able to fully explain Fire and Emergency services and the difference between an ESD run department and one like our current FD, which I highly doubt is the case. Much like I doubt you even have a true interest in getting the facts (based on your previous confrontational posts/ comments). Good luck with that!

Simply put, if you fully understood and had interest in what it really would mean on a holistic level for our community, you might realize that it not only is a good thing, but would be very beneficial to EVERYONE the ESD encompassed.

A fire chief trying to better services for his community and extend the response area, and be able to afford it. The city cannot afford to keep offering free services, so he is trying to find a way to keep the service available- for the second year in a row he is petitioning for this, and rather than support, he gets critiqued?!?! ON A QUOTE?!?! Really?:confused:

Now, if all you are looking for is confrontation and an arguments without care for the underlying subject or getting the facts related to it- there are plenty of other forums (less detrimental with less important subjects) that you could go visit to start correcting definitions of words and telling people they are "WRONG" whether you know anything about the subject. I am fairly certain that you do not care to understand, so in the meantime, how about a little respect toward the guy who just might be pumping your chest to keep you alive someday?! :rolleyes:

Regardless of how you feel about all this, or how rude you are: let me assure you, that if you were hurt or in need of emergency care, my husband and all of his employees and volunteers would be there to do everything in their power to save you. That is their job, and is a very critical one, especially when it hits close to home.

I apologize if this seems harsh and/ or rash, but people like Medics, Firefighters and other professionals who constantly better (or save) the lives of others do not deserve unneeded inflammatory comments or "blasts".

It would be awesome if we could stick to facts to offer insight to those on this forum who truly want to understand this petition!

Way to go Chief & FF's! I am very proud of you and appreciate your hard work on this and everything else you do for your community, every single day. ;)

[Fyrewyfe]

I am a fan of ESD's and the services they provide at what I consider to be a minimal cost to the citizens involved. I am not the biggest fan of property tax either but the thought that funding emergency services or any other aspect of local, county or state services base strictly on sales tax is itself absurd. If that were the case I'd assume the way of the future to fund your local fire department's services would be to attach a credit card machine to the pump panel of the fire engine that is there to put out your house fire...so that you must swipe a credit card and be charged a sales tax for each gallon of water used to extinguish the fire... Hope the card is valid... Or place the credit card machine on the back of the ambulance to bill prior to being able to get inside and be transported to the hospital to have your broken leg fixed from the car wreck you suffered.

Taxes, unfortunately, are a necessary evil in our economy and I expect that it will be that way as long as I am alive.

Here's is a post that has been floating around popular social websites that I think makes an excellent point on how people need to start helping their local emergency responders... It really doesn't cost that much.

"On average, homeowners pay $1.36 a day to fund a full time Fire Department including salaries and benefits. If you have a smart phone you pay on average $3.33 a day for your phone. That phone won't save your life, perform CPR, protect your property, transport you to the hospital in an emergency, etc. Copy and paste to your status and encourage everyone to support their local Firefighters!"

I do not know where the statistical data came from but I believe it to be fairly close to accurate for the average property owner, based on my personal finances.

Good Luck to the citizens of Burnet County and the Granite Shoals FD.

Well said, and very true!!! There are so many here that very obviously want to argue with everything, but your post is dead on and a very good, valid point.`

The sad truth is that most folks do not care UNTIL it is their home burning down, THEIR heart stopping (good luck finding a CPR certified friend out in the sticks!), or their family in a serious MVA! It would be SOOOOO much easier to stick a credit card machine on all apparatus, ambulances and extracation tools..... fine idea!

Thanks for a very insightful post Txfirefighter. A little clarity on this page is a breath of fresh air! :):):)

[Waldo]

and 2 million worth of property would be 5.44 a day, 3 million would be 7.16 and 4 would be 9.88

I'm not saying that is what I have, but I am saying what I would be willing to pay.

Kylfyre, to be fair, tell us what the proposed budget would be and what the aggregate tax base is for the area, then how many cents per hundred would be needed to provide the funds for the estimated budget. Then compare that figure to what the average citizen in GS pays for that protection.

[Kylfyre]

OK, keep in mind that this info is from last year, but is pretty close but these numbers are rounded for easier math

The city of Granite Shoals $400,000,000 assessed value per the Appraisal district.
Fire Department Budget $200,000 per year
that equates to about 5 cents per 100 evaluation the the City of GS resident pays.

If the ESD passes
Burnet Count assessed value in our fire district, $150,000,000 so at the same 5 cents per 100 it would equate to a $75,000 budget from the ESD

Highland Haven assessed value was $80,000,000 so the the same 5 cents per 100 it would equate to $40,000 budget from the ESD

So the Total budget for the GSFD if the ESD passes would be
$200,000 from Granite Shoals
$75,000 from Burnet county ESD #3 (County Area)
$40,000 from Highland Haven, through an ESD or City contract.
The Granite Shoals Fire Auxiliary raises about $20,000 a year in donations and fundraisers.
Total Budget $335,000 estimate from all funding sources.

The City of Granite Shoals city budget only covers operating costs of the Department, including staff, equipment, building costs. There are no capital expenses in the current budget, ie no new fire trucks, building remodels or Major equipment purchases over $2500 except for 1 item which cost $5000. We also receive several grants for equipment and training that vary throughout the year. This is a very lean budget for a fire department that runs 1000 calls per year and maintains an average of 5 minute response time and an Insurance Service organization (ISO) rating of a 4.

These numbers are not set in stone and by no means a guarantee, because I do not know what the ESD board will set the rate at, nor do I know what the appraisal district will value properties at, but this is a very simplistic formula that can be used as a target Budget that will be proposed.


Please visit us online to view our equipment staff, and programs we offer.
www.gsfd.us (http://www.gsfd.us)

[tonigking]

I have tried to stay out of this one but the misinformation and blatant lies has gotten so far out of hand it has a lot of us "oldtimers" running scared.

We in Granite Shoals and some surrounding areas, for years and my parents before me, struggled to help support an all volunteer fire dept. The Auxillary (I am not a member) donated thousands of hours of time, energy and personal money to get the equipment and man power to field both Fire and EMS protection with pancakes , chili and fish fries.
The building, the trucks, the ambulances, equipment, training, etc. didn't just fall out of the sky.

It is GS Shoals tax money , not County , that is currently in the budget to keep our Fire/EMS Dept. solvent. I would like to see a fully paid Fire Dept. but I am so thankful for the young men and women who give of their time, expertise , dedication and hopefully not thier life, to keep me safe.

Having said all that , my question is how can some of you out in the County be so ungrateful for all the years of response to your needs without contributing a dime?

Equipment and vehicles wear out and need replacing, salaries increase, etc.,etc. and you want GS to continue to fund that while you enjoy all the benefits. I think not.

Now folks, I know many of you outside of GS have supported, in more ways than one, so I am not talking to you. I simply ask that everyone get the facts and forget the garbage that has been posted here by some.:mad:

We are so fortunate to have the Fire Chief we have and all the Volunteers, so here is a big THANK YOU for all of them.:rockon:

[toy1985]

Kylfyre - don't know this to be a fact but there was a mention of a 30 something thousand dollar subsidy from the county each year also wasn't there?

[Kylfyre]

Burnet County Pays All the Volunteer Fire departments in Burnet County $23,000 a year (including the newly formed ESD in Cassie, and Bertram) for County and Mutual Aid Calls. But keep in mind that all Burnet County Residents(including City Residents) pay this tax. This money can at any time by county commissioners be taken away due to budget cuts and mandated state cutbacks as well. Even so this money still does not cover all of the expenses incurred in county and mutual aid responses nor does it change the fact that city residents pay more than county residents for the same fire and emergency services, but it does help.

[fireman]

Waldo
Just interested. Where is there a close to $20 million dollar property in the proposed service area of ESD 3.
I would gladly pay $10 per day, I will not pay $50.
I'm not saying that is what I have, but I am saying what I would be willing to pay.

Caretaker,
It says to Fund the Department Including Salaries and Benefits.)What that says to me is get rid of Volunteers and pay permanent FFs alot and give them Lots of benefits.

Are you serious? Come by the satation any time and I will show you my pay check! I work 3 jobs, 2 being firefighting jobs, and the other in construction to support my family. The only benefits that the firefighters would recieve is the same benefits that the police, road workers, water depatment employees and those who work in the offices at City Hall do. Do you think we are being over compensated by having benefits? Right now if I take a day off I don't get paid. I cannot afford to take a day off and go enjoy the day with my family because I don't have any of these benefits.

Caretaker,
It says(that phone wont save your life) Definately wrong on that one.Look at how many folks have used that PHONE to call 911.
If you are in the county and the ESD is voted down I am not sure what you think you are going to get when you pick up your phone and call 911 and try to get the services that you voted against to respond to your emergency. This is not the point that was trying to be made about the phone. The point was that you probably pay more per day for a cell phone than you would pay for emergency service.

Tonigking- Thank you very much for your support. Please inform your neighbors of the importance of this issue, and the need for them to vote.

To all of those who are opposed to the ESD
I am a firefighter for the graniteshoals fire department. Please do not put me in the situation of you having an emergency and me not being able to respond. Don't make me respond in the engine and stop at the city limits. This is what is going to happen and I am going to know that I could have made a diffrence, but due to money I can't respond to the scene. I can tell you though, if this is voted down and we are no longer able to respond to the area do not blame the firefighters and first responders. This is going to be square on the shoulders of those who check no in the box. The folks I feel for are the ones that do not know this is going on and have to find out the hard way.

[fireman]

Another thing. If you do not have a fire department, that is going to drive up the cost of your homeowners insurance with an ISO rating of 10. I task those that are opposed to the formation of an ESD to call your insurance agent and ask them to run the numbers and see what your homeowners insurance premium does when your ISO rating goes from a 4 to a 10. I bet you will find that the savings of having an ISO 4 will more than offset the cost of an ESD.

[Kylfyre]

There will be an ESD #3 creation Meeting on March 7, 2011 at the Granite Shoals City Hall at 7:00pm in the City Council Chambers. There will be officials on hand to give a presentation on the proposed ESD and Question and Answer session. Please Plan to attend to help understand how ESD's work, are Governed and are funded. If you Live within the Granite Shoals Fire Department District you should attend. Included Sub-divisions are Twin Isles, Hidden Oaks, Shady Acres, Kingsland Estates, Lookout Mountain Area, Camp Pajama, Wilderness Cove, Beaver and Web Isle, Sunset and any County Resident Located Between Wirtz Dam Road and the Burnet County/Llano County Line. Also included is the City of Highland Haven and of Course City of Granite Shoals. The future of your Fire, Rescue and First Response EMS will be the topic of discussion.

[Kylfyre]

Here are a couple of maps that show the fire districts in Burnet County and a map that shows the proposed ESD service area.



http://home.kemperfamily.us/~kemper/esdmaps/burnet-esd-fire.pdf (http://home.kemperfamily.us/%7Ekemper/esdmaps/burnet-esd-fire.pdf)
http://home.kemperfamily.us/~kemper/esdmaps/gs-esd-3.pdf (http://home.kemperfamily.us/%7Ekemper/esdmaps/gs-esd-3.pdf)

[Waldo]

Wasn't able to attend meeting last night because of illness. Anything new?

[Waldo]

OK, now I am really confused. I have read in the Sunday Tribune quoting the Fire Chief that "ESD#3 aims to combine Granite Shoals, Highland Haven and Wilderness Cove (wherever that is) to create a larger tax base and possibly provide services at a rate less than 4 cents". How do you create a lesser rate in a special district? Is that legal.

[Kylfyre]

The article leads one to believe that the ESD is not possible, in fact it will be pushed to the November 2011 Election. This is because the Consent Letters Sent to the affected cities could not be completed before the final day to call for the election by Commissioners Court had been reached. But the petition and the Fees paid are still good and will remain in effect. The Consent Letters will be re-sent in May so as to give plenty of time for cities to complete them properly. This will also give time to have more information about the proposed district given to the affected citizens so they know exactly what they are voting on. As for the papers comment on Creating a larger Tax base and possibly provide a rate less than 4 cents. That comment was taken out of context. What I said was that the Goal of the ESD was to combine Granite Shoals with the Proposed ESD District so as to fund the Fire department. But the ESD can contract with any other FD at whatever rate that the two agencies Agree to.

[butchkemper]

OK, now I am really confused. I have read in the Sunday Tribune quoting the Fire Chief that "ESD#3 aims to combine Granite Shoals, Highland Haven and Wilderness Cove (wherever that is) to create a larger tax base and possibly provide services at a rate less than 4 cents". How do you create a lesser rate in a special district? Is that legal.
Try as they may, the newspaper reporters do not always hear and write what was really said.

Butch

[Waldo]

I guess I am still having problems understanding how Granite Shoals can benefit from something that in theory others are contributing to. Was the goal always to "combine Granite Shoals with the proposed ESD District so as to fund the Fire Dept"?

[Kylfyre]

There is currently a petition that is being circulated in the Granite Shoals Fire Response Area for Local residents to form an Emergency Service District or ESD to fund Fire Department Services and First Responder EMS calls in the unincorporated and non- city areas of the Granite Shoals Fire District.
Emergency Services Districts are political subdivisions of Texas that are entrusted with providing emergency medical and fire services to many unincorporated areas of the state. Because emergency services districts are political subdivisions of the State of Texas, they are required to comply with all of the open government laws in addition to the health codes and regulations of emergency services providers.
An ESD is governed by a board of commissioners who are appointed for two year staggered terms. All members must own real property or be a registered voter in the district where they serve. ESD board set a tax rate from 1 cent to a maximum 10 cents per $100 evaluation. THESE FUNDS CAN ONLY BE USED FOR FIRE AND EMERGENCY SERVICES ONLY. The ESD can form a new fire department, or Contract with a another Fire Department to provide the services.

As mentioned above, there are many statutes and regulations (http://texasesdlaw.com/laws.htm) governing Texas emergency services districts. Perhaps the most important statute is Chapter 775 of the Texas Health & Safety Code.

For years the Granite Shoals Fire Department has provided these services to the City of Granite Shoals, City of Highland Haven, and all areas between Wirtz Dam Road to the Burnet County line in Kingsland. Funding Comes from Multiple sources including the City of Granite Shoals, Highland Haven, Burnet County, Fire Department Fundraisers, Grants (Federal and State) and Donations. This system has worked in the past when the Granite Shoals Fire Department Ran only a few Hundred Calls a year and did not have any paid Firefighters. Currently the Fire and Rescue Call volume has increased to 900 calls a year and a Part Paid and Part Volunteer Firefighter system.

The City of Granite Shoals residents pay approx 5 cents per $100 evaluation for the City Fire Service through City Taxes.Highland Haven and the Remaining unincorporated areas district pay much less than this amount.
In Early 2010 the City of Granite Shoals city council established a new Fire Protection Ordinance that outlines Fire Department responses to calls outside the City Limits. Basically the Fire department will not respond outside the city unless there is a valid and current mutual aid contract or a Valid and fair Contract from other entities that provide "adequate" Compensation to the City.

An ESD can enter an agreement with the city and provide "adequate" funding to the city of Granite Shoals for Fire Protection. The City of Granite Shoals cannot continue to subsidize its fire services to Non-city residents at the City's expense. So the Creation of ESD # 3 is necessary for the unincorporated areas to continue to have Fire Service from the City of Granite Shoals. Please note City of Granite Shoals Residents will not incur any new taxes from the formation of the ESD as they already pay for fire services.


To Sign the petition you must live in the own property within the proposed district and be a registered voter in Burnet County.
I know this thread is long and I am sure I have left something out, feel free to post questions or comments and I will answer them as soon as possible.


Austin Stanphill


Waldo here is the original post and reasoning for the proposed ESD#3

The Goal is for the Formed ESD to Contract with the City for Fire service. An ESD board could decide to contract with another Fire Department, or Form a new Department if they did not want service from the City, but that would be the ESD's choice.

The County areas of our response district are not paying what the City Residents are paying. County Residents are paying much less. The City cannot subsidize city services to these residents. So either the county residents need to pay for the services or the city needs to end their response to non-city areas (With the Exception of Mutual Aid Agreements). Both areas will benefit from the ESD by providing more funding to the Fire Department. This will provide the means to provide Equipment, Training and Staff, thus reducing response times, and potentially lower homeowner insurance rates.

So it boils down to the County Residents decision if they want to pay for Fire Service. But get all the information for yourself, and make your own informed decision if you want the District. What are the Pro's and What are the Con's, and are you willing to accept it? This is not a decision for the GS residents, they already pay taxes for the service.

Some Key Questions

1. How much are money per year will an ESD cost me at different rates?
2. What is my current insurance rate and will it change if my Fire Department Changes?
3. What Fire department will cover me if Granite Shoals Does not and how far away are their stations and service?
4. What current services, staffing levels, training and equipment does the Granite Shoals Fire Department Have?
5. What current services, staffing levels, training and equipment do the other fire departments have?
6. Will another Fire department Cover us if Granite Shoals Does not? If so what will they charge?
7. Do I Need Fire and Rescue services?

Bottom Line Costs

The ESD rates can range from 1 cent to 10 cents per $100 evaluation.
The ESD CANNOT charge more than .10 cents per $100 evaluation.
The initial rate is determined by the ESD Commissioners which are Taxpayers within the district
Once the Rate is set the ESD Board cannot change the rate unless it is approved by the voters of the district in an election.

SO the Maximum you would pay

a 75,000 home and property at 10 cents is 75 ($75) dollars per year (or 20 cents per day.)
a 100,000 home and property at 10 cents is 1 hundred ($100) dollars per year (or 27 cents per day.)
a 250,000 home and property at 10 cents is 2 hundred and fifty ($250) dollars per year (or 68 cents per day.)
a 500,000 home and property at 10 cents is 5 hundred ($500) dollars per year (or $1.36 per day)
a 1,000,000 home and property at 10 cents is 1 thousand ($1000) dollars per year (or $2.72 per day)

[Peaches]

Once the Rate is set the ESD Board cannot change the rate unless it is approved by the voters of the district in an election.

I don't think this information is correct...otherwise the ESD board would automatically set the rate at .10 per $100 value and the rate could not be adjusted down without a vote. I believe the only instance that requires a vote is when a new tax is established. The maximum ESD tax rate IS .10 per $100 value.

ONLY the ESD board has the power to set the tax rate; therefore the ESD petition cannot set a lower limit. The ESD must be approved, and the board must be appointed, before any tax rate can be adopted. The Board must also decide which department will be contracted for the services.

Chapter 775 of the Texas Health & Safety Code states the petition MUST contain specific information and must operate in accordance with Article III, Section 48-e, of the Texas Constitution.

At one point, Llano County attemped to create an EMS ESD using only sales tax funding. The Attorney General issued an opinion on the matter, and Llano County had to step back.

Read this information if you believe an ESD will, in some way, touch your life in the future:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/HS/htm/HS.775.htm

Also, here is the Article III, Sec. 48-e info.

Sec. 48-e. EMERGENCY SERVICES DISTRICTS. Laws may be enacted to provide for the establishment and creation of special districts to provide emergency services and to authorize the commissioners courts of participating counties to levy a tax on the ad valorem property situated in said districts not to exceed Ten Cents (10¢) on the One Hundred Dollars ($100.00) valuation for the support thereof; provided that no tax shall be levied in support of said districts until approved by a vote of the qualified voters residing therein. Such a district may provide emergency medical services, emergency ambulance services, rural fire prevention and control services, or other emergency services authorized by the Legislature.

[Peaches]

If you want to read the AG opinion issued to Llano, you can find it here: https://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opinions/50abbott/op/2004/htm/ga0242.htm

[Kylfyre]

Peaches. Thank you for you opinion but you are looking at a Llano County ESD for EMS. This is a Burnet County ESD for Fire and First Responder Service. EMS services in most cases have the option of billing for transports and Most of them do, to increase their revenues. Fire Departments are very limited in their billing powers so taxes or an ESD in most cases are needed to properly fund effective Fire Departments.

Also in defense of you comment you made Earlier about ESD Tax increase.

Sec. 775.0745. ELECTION TO INCREASE TAX RATE. (a) If the board decides to increase the maximum tax rate of the district to any rate at or below the rate allowed by this chapter or Section 48-e, Article III, Texas Constitution, the board must order an election to authorize the increase. The proposition on the ballot must state the proposed maximum tax rate to be authorized at the election.
(b) The board shall give notice of the election as provided by Section 4.003, Election Code. The notice shall contain the information required by Section 4.004, Election Code.
(c) The election shall be held on the first uniform election date provided by the Election Code after the date of the board's order that allows sufficient time to comply with any requirements of law.
(d) If a majority of the votes cast in the election favor the increase in the maximum tax rate, the maximum tax rate for the district is increased to the rate authorized by the election. The increase in the maximum tax rate does not apply to a tax year for which the board adopts a tax rate before the date of the election.
(e) Repealed by Acts 2005, 79th Leg., Ch. 123, Sec. 2, eff. September 1, 2005.

[Waldo]

In the event that the EDS proposal doesn't pass, is the City of Granite Shoals going to consider letting individuals contract for protection at the same rate Granite Shoals pays? The biggest objection I am hearing is anger at having supported the Volunteer Fire Dept for many years and now it belongs to Granite Shoals and that they are now expected to pay more for the same protection. There is a very strong feeling that this is simply not equitable.

[Kylfyre]

Waldo

The City of Granite Shoals is not obligated to provide County Residents Fire Department Coverage. The Citizens of the County and the City of Highland Haven would need to meet with City Officials to discuss a possible contract for services. An ESD would establish one Board that could meet with city officials and discuss every aspect of the contract easier than several HOA's. If the ESD Does not pass then the HOA's would need to meet with city officials to discuss possible contracts. As for residents not in an HOA, that has yet to be determined.

All of these scenarios will be at the discretion of the City Council and City Management, with input from the Fire Chief.

As to your statement of "County Residents being angry that they have supported the Volunteers for many years and now are expected to pay for the Same protection"

If the ESD is passed then the Fire department would have an increased budget and would be able to INCREASE it's current services. Including possible Full time Firefighters, specialized training for the Vol Firefighters, New and improved equipment to better protect responders and the public.

Keep in mind that the City Residents of Granite Shoals Also supported the Volunteer Fire Department for years and now pay a tax for continued service as well and those services have increased since. County Residents are only being asked to pay for services. This is not an unfair request. Most of the Fire Department donations currently come from the Granite Shoals Residents through VES donations. We receive several donations from Local Business, but donations from HOA's have decreased significantly.

The City of Granite Shoals Cannot Subsidize city services for County Residents or other Cities at the Expense of City of Granite Shoals Taxpayers. Either the County residents pay for the services through a Contract, or they don't. That's your choice.

[thistletex]

I just thought you all ought to know that it's impossible to unsubscribe from the Highlandlakes' daily update. If you're ever tired of getting the daily bulletin, forget it. You click the link and execute the form and nothing happens. This SPAM machine just keeps sending you emails. The only thing you can do is set a filter or change email addresses.