Our Elementary Teachers Need Our Support!

[lmam88]

For the first time in 25yrs. the State of Texas is considering raising the classroom limit size of children Kinder-4th grades. In my opinion this would NOT be in the best interest of our kids or our teachers. Kinder-2nd are the TAKS prep years. 3rd and 4th they are just beginning their expereinces with the actual TAKS testing. Teachers cannot teach the TAKS to an overcrowded classroom! Kids do not pass the TAKS less money is received by the schools, they run the risk of not passing and the teachers jobs are put on the line as it stands now. Money sound not over ride the success of our children!
To me it sounds like this goes against the Federal No Child Left Behind program:confused:!
http://www.myfoxaustin.com/dpp/news/texas/Texas-Could-Adjust-22-student-Class-Limit-20100510-apx
Homeschooling is sounding better and better I tell you:banghead:!

[WhyAskWhy]

I think every elected representative should spend a week shadowing an elementary teacher, a middle school teacher and a high school...a week with each.

[lmam88]

I think every elected representative should spend a week shadowing an elementary teacher, a middle school teacher and a high school...a week with each.

Isn't that the truth? I would make parents do the same. I don't think some of them have a clue! Very little interest in this but wait until they pass it and little Johnny comes home with failing grades...then reality will hit!

[mayflowers]

My suggestion would be that every parent should be required to spend at least one day at school with their child. Volunteer for something at the school. Teachers have a lot more to do then stand in a class room telling kids what to do. There are tests to grade, copies to be made, lessons to plan. And that's only a fraction of their work load.
I know many parents work and can't come to the school. But if at all possible they could take one of their vacation days to help a teacher. It would be an eye opener for many parents.
And if they ask around there may even be something they can do at home.
One job I once did to help my child's teacher was read books and create a test. It was just a simple test of 10 question. The purpose was to make sure they read the book. I enjoyed reading the stories and creating the tests was even more fun.
There's something for everyone.

[lmam88]

Yes, I agree with you mayflowers!
I just read the article about the Education Bailout. While I whole heartedly agree that the constant spending has to stop should our kids education be the price? The highest expectations ever have been place on them but yet at the same time we (parents, government, etc) are willing to take away the tools they need to reach the expectations that have been placed on them all in the name of money. We either want them to be performing at the highest level ever or we want to save money...which is it?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/14/obama-administration-seeks-bailout-teachers-nearly-exhausting-stimulus-funds/

[tarheel]

We either want them to be performing at the highest level ever or we want to save money...which is it? / (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/14/obama-administration-seeks-bailout-teachers-nearly-exhausting-stimulus-funds/)

Why are the two mutually exclusive?

[lmam88]

Why are the two mutually exclusive?

If you expect me to go out and dig a deep trench and then turn around and take away my shovels and hoes do you think I will meet your expectation? State level is trying to do away with the classroom limit so they can cut back on costs. Which means a whole lot more kids are going to be falling through the cracks not to mention overworked and stressed out teachers.
Federal level is seeking emeergency funding because apparently Education is in such a chrunch and they are trying to keep teachers teaching. Future forcast looks grim at providing the kids with what they need to stay ahead (good student to teacher ratio, updating modern technology etc) and meet the expectations (accountabilty tests and ratings) that have been placed on them.

[tarheel]

They are looking at raising class size upward from 22. How bad is that? Well, my elementary class had 26 students. It was not crowded. The school had about 150 students in 6 grades, with 6 teachers, including the principal, who taught 6th grade. No secretary, one janitor. That was it. My class produced lawyers, doctors, farmers, etc., in other words, the people required to make up a society. No, we did not have a cafeteria, I brought my lunch in a little tin lunch pail every day.

Sure, things are different now, but go find out how many administrators there are per student. How many classes do they teach, how much do they add to the product.

Everybody I know is tightening their belts. Why is public education immune and why can't they work to do excellent teaching without waste?

It is no surprise the teacher's union is fighting this. They are protecting themselves. I watched that first hand, being married to a teacher for over 30 years.

Every last one of us wants quality education for our kids. We have to work to do it without simply throwing more and more money on the fire. The well is running dry.

[lmam88]

[

It is no surprise the teacher's union is fighting this. They are protecting themselves. I watched that first hand, being married to a teacher for over 30 years.

Every last one of us wants quality education for our kids. We have to work to do it without simply throwing more and more money on the fire. The well is running dry.[/QUOTE]

How many years has it been since you have taught school tarheel? We have way more then 150 in our schools around here! Did you have to worry about the accountanilty testing and ratings? Anyone knows you are going to have kids scoring hgher on those tests if they are NOT in an overcrowded classroom. They have been having to sift teachers around because some grades are bigger then others as it is! I can see where the teachers would have concerns and it is not just to cover themselves!

[AllyMay]

How many years has it been since you have taught school tarheel?

I didn't see where it says that tarheel taught school. It says spouse...taught. Not sure why the attack on tarheel for giving an opinion.

I agree that a few more kids in the classroom isn't going to hurt classes. I also agree with tarheel that administration seems to have gotten way out of hand.

Seems to me that if a few more students are going to make or break a classes combined TAKS scores then there is already something missing in that class.

Less focus should be placed on statewide testing and more on preparing the students for college. AND TAKS TESTING DOES NOT DO THAT!!

[tarheel]

According to Marble Falls Elementary web site, "Marble Falls Elementary School is a growing neighborhood campus consisting of grades PK - 5, numbering approximately 555 students. The faculty and staff consist of 60 highly motivated educators who work alongside our active PTO and other community organizations to provide a warm, nurturing educational environment for our students."

The school I went to handled 150 kids with 7 faculty including janitor, or about 21 kids per employee. You'll have to trust me that I got a very fine education, loved the school, loved the teachers, went on to college, and got an MBA.

Now to Marble Falls Elementary, it is unclear as to whether the 60 educators include janitorial and maintenance staff, but my guess is that it does not. Anyway, they handle about 9 kids per educator. So, my concern is about what the extra educators are doing. They're not reducing class size, so I wonder exactly what we're paying for. After all, most of us taxpayers are struggling to some extent or another. It seems reasonable to me for the taxpayers to ask what our money is paying for.

[lmam88]

According to Marble Falls Elementary web site, "Marble Falls Elementary School is a growing neighborhood campus consisting of grades PK - 5, numbering approximately 555 students. The faculty and staff consist of 60 highly motivated educators who work alongside our active PTO and other community organizations to provide a warm, nurturing educational environment for our students."

The school I went to handled 150 kids with 7 faculty including janitor, or about 21 kids per employee. You'll have to trust me that I got a very fine education, loved the school, loved the teachers, went on to college, and got an MBA.

Now to Marble Falls Elementary, it is unclear as to whether the 60 educators include janitorial and maintenance staff, but my guess is that it does not. Anyway, they handle about 9 kids per educator. So, my concern is about what the extra educators are doing. They're not reducing class size, so I wonder exactly what we're paying for. After all, most of us taxpayers are struggling to some extent or another. It seems reasonable to me for the taxpayers to ask what our money is paying for.

I have never understood the thinking behind having two elementary schools within the city limits of Marble Falls. However HLES is busting at the seams and kids are having to be bused into Marble Falls Elementary. We have one Principal, one Asst. Principal and one Counselor! Seems like it would have been better planning to consolidate both campuses into one when they built the Colt Elementary...
I do believe raising the teacher student ratio would affect a campus like HLES more then te other campuses since it is the biggest Elementary campus in the school district.

[JSKR]

After all, most of us taxpayers are struggling to some extent or another. It seems reasonable to me for the taxpayers to ask what our money is paying for.

Our tax money is OVER paying an incredible salary for our superintendent approx. $170.000 for a student enrollment of 4011.

Hopefully, the school board will be smarter when selecting the replacement and offer what is reasonable. The school board gave Warren a big raise just a while ago and he still leaves, so he isn't appreciative for what the taxpayers done. Some taxpayers have literally suffered just to pay his exorbitant salary.

[lmam88]

Our tax money is OVER paying an incredible salary for our superintendent approx. $170.000 for a student enrollment of 4011.

Hopefully, the school board will be smarter when selecting the replacement and offer what is reasonable. The school board gave Warren a big raise just a while ago and he still leaves, so he isn't appreciative for what the taxpayers done. Some taxpayers have literally suffered just to pay his exorbitant salary.
The $170,000 is a drop in the bucket compared to what he will be making although for a much larger district. He is from that area and wants to move back and the chance came up so he took it. I do not think it was a lack of appreciation on his part at all. People take advantage of great chances when they arise plain and simple!
You were not here when the one before him was here, were you? I have had my differences with Dr. Warren but always appreciated him because of what we had before him. If it takes $170,000 to hired a decent, good Super. then it is money well spent.
I pray that we do not wind up with another one like the one he replaced!

[tonigking]

How many of the children in HLES are children of non-tax paying illegal aliens?

Profile that one and decide how much our children are being robbed of a good education due to teachers having to focus on esl students.:popcorn:

[lmam88]

How many of the children in HLES are children of non-tax paying illegal aliens?

Profile that one and decide how much our children are being robbed of a good education due to teachers having to focus on esl students.:popcorn:
You bring up a very good and valid point. Last I heard HLES was the only Bilingual Elementary Campus in MFISD.
I do know there is very little turn over at HLES and they shift the teachers they do have around to where ever they are needed. They brought some up from 2nd grade to 4th grade this year.

[lmam88]

I would be interested to know how much the Head Start Program costs the tax payers each year as well. I know when our older kids were young there was no such thing as Head Start. My grandson attends and honestly he learns just as much as he does in Daycare.
I just learned from a friend who works in an ISD that Head Start is the same as a Daycare only it is free since it is a part of Public Schools.
Wonder how much money could be saved if they did away with it? Why are the tax payers flipping the bill for families who won't or can't pay for daycare? Then our kids are the ones being punished by the state cutbacks!

[hmmm]

I am curious to know when and where Tarheel went to school. With only 150 students split between six grades, it must have been a very small school. If one were to look at research, one would find that children learn better in smaller learning communities (such as the 150 students for six grades.) When campuses become too large, children easily get lost in the crowd. The more kids there are, the more difficult it is for teachers and administrators (along with all other support personnel such as librarians and nurses) to build meaningful relationships with them. One key factor in a child's success at school is the development of at least one meaningful relationship with an adult who is concerned about his or her education. We need smaller campuses, not larger. And, we need smaller classes, not larger. If the State or District needs to crunch numbers, they should not look to make classes larger, rather they should look at the number of administrators employed and make reductions there (MF is top-heavy in that area.)

Now please consider the following. If a class has 25 pupils per teacher, and the teacher spends two hours a day on math, each child receives only 4.8 minutes of mathematics instruction directly from the teacher. Taking into account that children learn at different rates and in different ways, some children might receive far more one-on-one time than others. Is there any way putting more children into an elementary school classroom could possibly be beneficial to our society in the long run?

Head Start is a federally funded program. It is a very successful program which prepares children who might not otherwise receive any pre-k background. Ask a kindergarten teacher, it is a federal program that makes a real difference in the lives of children.

Finally, my children attend Marble Falls Elementary. They have had fine teachers who have helped them develop both academically and socially in spite of the tremendous differences in the backgrounds of all of their students. We are truly fortunate in MFISD to have such a staff of fine teachers. I hope the State of Texas does not increase class size limits. It would be to the detriment of the educational system as a whole.

[moxie]

Those are good points hmmm (nice handle), especially about Administrators and their staff. tarheel said his principal taught. I don't see any of this happening here in MFISD. I'll find out next year, but I think the Administrative bloat in our district expands as you move up to MS and HS. It would be nice to know the dollars per kid spent on classroom instructors vs. dollars per kid spent on administration vs. dollars per kid spent on the rest of the support staff. As a community, we need to decide how we want the shrinking pie of dollars to be divided between these. As a parent with kids in MFISD schools, I certainly would rather see more classroom instruction and less administrators and support staff. Outsourcing some of the support work in technology, food service, and maintenance might even save money for the district (property tax payers) as well as boost the local economy.

I am a parent also, and I do help out where I can at/with the school. Unfortunately, I do not see many parents putting in time. I would suspect the volunteer to student ratio is somewhere around 1 to 50. I don't think this a big problem, it would be more important for ALL parents to just take more time reading and showing interest in what their kid is doing in school, and even supplementing the school instruction with a little real world experience related to what their kid is learning.

It would be nice to see some of the communities non-parents coming in to support the rest of our kids. At work and at play, I see a large number of retirees here in the MF area taking advantage of the services provided to them by the working adults, many of whom are parents. Yes, they typically are "paying" for the service they receive, but taking a little time to give to the community through support of our schools above and beyond the taxes you pay would be a nice gesture, and help out tremendously in some young persons lives.

Unlike the student makeup of tarheel's school, I suspect MFISD has a much more diverse student body with many more issues and special needs for students who are mainstreamed together. This is a difficult problem for both Teachers and Administrators. I don't have any good ideas to resolve it, but something that must come up when speaking about class size and funding. Believe it or not, some of the Teachers in those big bad unions actually care about teaching quality, not just making it easier.

disclosure: My family has several Teachers and Administrators (retired), some taught/teach in MF sized districts while others taught/teach in larger urban districts around Texas.

[lmam88]

I understand and appreciate where both of you are coming from. Yes, it does seem our district is a bit top heavy with new positions being "created" quite often.
However the biggest threat to our classrooms is coming from the state level at the present and not the local. Now IF the lawmakers decide to leave it to each school district that would be a different story. I firmly believe raising the classroom to teacher ratio in Texas would be going against the Federally funded "No Child Left Behind" Program. Anything that is tagged as being "Federally Funded" let's face it trickles down to taxpayers!
On the Federal level (and state) I do not understand why we have 3yr. olds attending Public Schools. That is just a waste of money in my book. There was no such thing when our older kids were in school and they did just fine!

Disclosure: I too have school teachers in my family who teach at bigger school districts and they are getting more and more frustrated with how much the state and federal government are dictating how and what they can teach. They feel like they are confined to a box with the TAKS as center stage! That is not what teaching is suppose to be about for the kids or the teachers! Our kids are no longer treated as kids. They are little mini computers with the teachers as the input operators!

[tonigking]

I am sure I don't have to point out to the Teachers that the biggest bloat of all is TEA !

with all it's Regions and legions of staff.

As far as a top heavy amount of administrators in local school districts you can chalk a lot of it up to the Fed/State requirements in the field of paperwork.

Like most government agencies, both state and federal, the name of the game is self justification. Children's education doesn't enter the equation.

As a retiree, I do not feel the need to raise someone else's kids. I more than paid my dues when my children were in school. It is quite enough that at 71 y/o, I still have to pay school taxes.:oldfogey:

[tarheel]

hmmm, I went to elementary school in East Texas in the 1950s. Population of the town was about 12,000. We had neighborhood schools spotted all over town, to my memory there were 6 elementary schools, some a bit larger than mine. If a student couldn't walk to school (which basically meant that they lived on a farm outside of town), they rode the bus. My father was a teacher for much of his life, and my oldest brother taught there in the high school. He made $3500 per year in 1962. As I said, my wife was a lifelong teacher.

moxie, you are certainly correct about "diverse student body." We had Mexican students, who got along just fine. One of my buddies was Mexican, and his mother's homemade tamales were to die for. The schools were segregated in those days, so blacks had their own schools. I don't know much about the elementary, but the black high school was more modern and looked nicer than the white high school. In any event, the Mexicans did not hang out with other Mexicans, they hung out with the rest of us, they were our friends, that's all there was to it. We didn't call them special names, like Mexican-American, they were just of different ancestry, the same as an Italian might be. My own ancestry is English, Dutch, German, and a little bit of American Indian (Choctaw).

I totally agree about campus size. Larger class sizes around 25-26 (instead of 22) should be fine on a small campus. However, our brilliant educators want to build super schools, huge campuses, citing economies of scale. I disagree. It is the same problem you run into when you cram people into large cities instead of small towns. My elementary school had six classrooms and a small auditorium. You couldn't get in much trouble there, there was no place to hide.

So, what changed from the 50's to today? How many specialists, administrators, psychologists, and other hangers on are we spending money on today that we got along fine without back in the day? How much have those elite educators added to our education? You ask me ... they are a net negative. Who wants them? The NEA does. The union. The Department of Education. You want to point fingers, those are the people who have been in charge of the deterioration of our school system. Overeducated elitists whose main concern is their own power.

I know this has gotten too long. However, one more thing on parental involvement. It can not be overstated. I used to go to the library in my previous city. About 90% of the time that I'd go in there in the early evening, there was a Vietnamese family in one of the rooms. Both parents and their three children. The parents were very active and working with their children, pointing at the books, etc. You get the picture. They were totally engaged in their children's education and development. Who wants to bet me money that these children achieved at an extremely high level?

[lmam88]

I am sure I don't have to point out to the Teachers that the biggest bloat of all is TEA !

with all it's Regions and legions of staff.

As far as a top heavy amount of administrators in local school districts you can chalk a lot of it up to the Fed/State requirements in the field of paperwork.

Like most government agencies, both state and federal, the name of the game is self justification. Children's education doesn't enter the equation.

As a retiree, I do not feel the need to raise someone else's kids. I more than paid my dues when my children were in school. It is quite enough that at 71 y/o, I still have to pay school taxes.:oldfogey:

Toni, you are so right! You should NOT be having to pay school taxes. What happened to the law that at a certain age our "more exprienced" population is exempt from school taxes? Is that not still the case?

[tarheel]

Well, I feel like good schools are a part of living in a great country and I don't mind paying my share, or even more than my share. I sure do feel like they are misusing and wasting the money.

[docsmith]

What changed from the fifties? Mom was at home (generally speaking) and most parents were still married to the original spouse (again generally speaking). If you got in trouble at school you got in trouble again at home. Parents read to their kids. Kids played outside instead of watching tv all the time. Parents were involved in their kids' education.

[lmam88]

What changed from the fifties? Mom was at home (generally speaking) and most parents were still married to the original spouse (again generally speaking). If you got in trouble at school you got in trouble again at home. Parents read to their kids. Kids played outside instead of watching tv all the time. Parents were involved in their kids' education.
I was a 60's-70's kid. Parents broke up when I was in H.S. which was no big deal...relief actually. I had a mom that went above and beyond though by reading to us, teaching how to do for ourselves, taking reponsibilty for our actions, teaching Sunday School, running Sock Hops after in town games, was ALWAYS the first at any and every school function (too bad they did not have bus rider miles then like they do for flying now). She never left us alone without telling the Sheriff so he could make rounds by our house (that's a small town for ya!) just to make sure we were safe (4 girls). If we ever even thought about following the crowd in pranks our parents knew without us ever saying a word, ha,ha,ha! We also actually had CURFEWS and normally were earlier then our friends! From what I hear they are Taboo these days!

I did the same for our older kids and am trying to do the same for our younger one although I do have to admit my night time vision problms are getting in the way of attending all schoold functions. I am there during all the day time functions though. All you have to do is look into your childs eyes when you are there helping or watching and it says it all to me at least!
The big difference I see from then to now. Kids were not taken for granted, they were treasured, they were disciplined with love when they did wrong so they would know wrong from right and that has become a BIG no, no today. We were also given responsibiltes and if we wanted money to buy something speical we were directed to dad so he could put us to work at the shop and earn it. There were no hand outs! Today most often mom and dads are banks, kids run wild with not a care in the world. I am proud to say that all of our older kids do NOT fall into that category! They work hard in their endeavors and know that nothing in life is free but they also know they will ALWAYS have a family they can count on during good and bad times.

It's becoming very costly for the federal and state government to play the role that should be the parents that's for sure!

[moxie]

moxie, you are certainly correct about "diverse student body." We had Mexican students...

I was not referring to race, but to the many classifications our kids are labeled, then jumbled back into one group.