Education the Obama Way...

[lmam88]

Looks like it is underway. I just don't feel this is the answer...


http://www.verizon.net/newsroom/portals/newsroom.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=newsroom_portal_page_us_article&_article=2640360

[Peaches]

How sad for those children. It sounds as if the only stability in some of their lives are their teachers.

If I were a teacher, I would never accept a job with that school district. What will they do when the faculty pool runs dry?

[lmam88]

They will get desperate and hire more unqualified teachers. The good teachers are going to get tired of all the BS and either retire or just drop out of the profession.
Where will that leave our childrens education then?

[mdarling]

Maybe they should fire the superintendent, too!

[K5JSW]

Maybe they should fire the superintendent, too!


I agree, that is where they should start, oh you are talking about in Rhode Island, I agree with that too.

[Peaches]

If firing the superintendent there is anything like firing a superintendent in Texas, it won't happen. Texas school boards don't have the power to fire superintendents...they have very limited powers.

[mdarling]

How unfortunate! You would think we (as tax payers) would have something to say about it.

[lmam88]

If firing the superintendent there is anything like firing a superintendent in Texas, it won't happen. Texas school boards don't have the power to fire superintendents...they have very limited powers.

Then who do the Superintendents answer to if they do not answer to the School Board or Tax Payers:confused:?

[nosefornews]

I have to ask, how many actually read the true report of what happened in Rhode Island? Here's a recap from the San Antonio Express News

Now the administration is angering teachers unions in the name of education. Without flinching, it has supported a Rhode Island school superintendent who fired all the teachers at Central Falls High School after they refused to accept a reasonable package of reforms. Education Secretary Arne Duncan praised Frances Gallo and the state education official who backed her for “doing the right thing for kids.”
I never thought I'd see that. Teachers are among the Democrats' staunchest supporters, and the president has heretofore shown little stomach for displeasing public-employee unions.
But now Obama is standing with the people against the foes of change. A factory town, Central Falls was ravaged in the recession, and it wasn't doing so hot before. It is full of good working people wanting more for their children than they have.
More than half the high school's students don't graduate, and only one in 10 can do math at grade level. If any school could benefit from the administration's anti-dropout program, it is Central Falls High.
And this isn't some “liberal” plan to throw money at public schools. The school-improvement grants come with tough strings attached, including possible closure of failing institutions.
Superintendent Gallo first tried to negotiate with teachers. She wanted them to add 25 minutes to their 6.5-hour workday, provide an hour a week of tutoring and eat lunch with students once a week for the same pay.
It's true that these poor kids pose more challenges to educators than children from privileged backgrounds. But the least they expect is that their teachers, making an average $72,000 to $78,000 a year, put in a full day on the job.
To private-sector workers facing layoffs, furloughs, frozen pensions and chore add-ons, the demands being made on these teachers must seem modest. And how many wouldn't jump for 100 percent job security, which the Central Falls teachers were promised in return for embracing reform?
Union officials in Rhode Island and Washington immediately issued thinly veiled threats to the president for “condoning the mass firing.” Trying to rouse powerful teachers unions everywhere, a local leader said, “Everyone looks at this as establishing a national precedent.”


So for everyone who is defending the teachers in Rhode Island what exactly is so unreasonable about what the Super wanted them to do?

[Peaches]

Nose....This article seems to be an opinion piece...not what I would consider a "here are all the facts so you can make an informed decision" kind of article.

One thing that bothers me about the article is the statement about the teachers' workday being 6.5 hours long...frankly, I just do not believe that to be the actual case. I believe those teachers may teach 6.5 hours a day, but I don't think their workday ends when the bell rings at 3:30 p.m. Grading papers, lesson plans, parent/teacher meetings, and other class room related activities shouldn't be expected as freebes.

If I were a teacher in that school district, especially in a school with a similar student drop-out rate and other issues, I'd immediately start looking for a job in another school district, or perhaps I'd find another profession. The teachers who will find better jobs elsewhere first will be the best teachers in that district. What kind of teachers will be left in those schools after the dust settles? How is firing all those teachers a wise move when that happens?

One other thing I would question in that article is the average salary range of $72K to $78K...is that the average salary of only the teachers who were terminated, or does that include administrative salaries? And, even if that average range is correct, do you think you would accept a teaching job in a school such as Central Falls High? I'm reasonably sure I wouldn't!

When it all comes down the pipe, who's usually to blame when kids fail? In my opinion, the parents. Sometimes the parents are knocking themselves out trying to eek out a living for themselves and their family, and sometimes the parents just don't really care.

[Peaches]

Then who do the Superintendents answer to if they do not answer to the School Board or Tax Payers:confused:?

A board may ask for a superintendent's resignation, but if the superintendent doesn't want to resign, the only real alternative is court action. Even if the superintendent commits some criminal act, the board can't just fire him or her without taking the case to court. That can be very expensive for the school district and the taxpayers.

Most often, school boards "pass the trash" on to other school districts...meaning when the superintendent smells trouble brewing, he or she will seek employment elsewhere and the board will give rave reviews on the superintendent's performance. Indescretions that surface after the superintendent's departure often fall on the shoulders of school board members - who really were at the mercy of the superintendent's honesty.

[nosefornews]

Ok Peaches, that was one how about this report from businessinsider.com

"A school superintendent in Rhode Island is trying to fix an abysmally bad school system. Her plan calls for teachers at a local high school to work 25 minutes longer per day, each lunch with students once in a while, and help with tutoring. The teachers' union has refused to accept these apparently onerous demands.
The teachers at the high school make $70,000-$78,000, as compared to a median income in the town of $22,000. This exemplifies a nationwide trend in which public sector workers make far more than their private-sector counterparts (http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-the-next-crisis-will-be-a-tax-revolt-because-government-salaries-are-relatively-outrageous-2010-2) (with better benefits).
The school superintendent has responded to the union's stubbornness by firing every teacher and administrator at the school:"

Those are the facts. The union didn't want to make changes and dug in their heels...what I find funny is that people are blaming the President for this and not even mentioning the Unions. The administration is standing up to one of the most loyal of all democratic supporters and yet people still want to somehow make this his fault.....

I just say, before we post headlines such as 'Education the Obama Way' in a critical manner, let's make sure we have all the facts in place or at least post the entire story or multiple sites. Because to me, if firing unproductive teachers is going to produce a better education for our kids, then I say fire them. They'd be fired in the private sector if they weren't performing.

and now I step off my soapbox.....

[lmam88]

"When all the teachers were fired last month from Central Falls High School in Rhode Island, their superintendent was giving them a taste of the accountability that President Barack Obama says is necessary for failing schools. "
This statement in the article is why I name this thread "Education the Obama way" Nose.
I agree with you Peaches the article is VERY one sided and it is very hard to believe that ALL those teachers were "bad" teachers and failing the school system. I beleive it is a shared blame and the teachers are just being used as scape goats.
It takes alot of ingredients to make a good school system. More then just good teachers!

[Peaches]

Nose,

This administration is, once again, backing a position that is probably detrimental to "the cause". The school district has 74 positions to fill. Do you believe good teachers are going to flock to Central Falls High School to replace those fired teachers? I don't. Those teachers will probably be replaced by people looking to make $72K a year; most likely teachers who can't get jobs elsewhere.

You have to ask youself why salaries in that school district averaged $72K-$78K per year (especially considering the median income of the town), and why so many students drop out. Are the working conditions dangerous? Is the school riddled with gangs? Are there a lot of drug deals going down?

You also have to think about the effect high drop out/fail rates have on a district's superintendent's resume and salary. Is the superintendent more concerned about her record than she is about the students? According to a USA Today article (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-02-24-all-educators-fired_N.htm) grant money was at the root of compiling a list of Rhode Island's worst-performing schools that identified Central Falls as one of them.

I just don't want to see this become a trend in this country. The Obama Administration just doesn't seem to be able to look at a situation and assess the damage their solutions might have.

[nosefornews]

but Peaches, the standards that this particular district is failing were set up by the Bush administration, this school has been failing for the past several years. This isn't something that just suddenly occurred overnight or since the inauguration, it has been building for awhile and the solution came from the Superintendent who had the following choices

1. Close the doors
2. Become a charter school (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school)
3. Go the “transformation model” path, which would lengthen school days and make other changes
4. Fire every teacher and start over

The union rejected option number 3 so the Superintendent took option 4 and now the union is up in arms against the current administration which as I pointed out is unique because NO democratic administration has EVER bucked the teachers union and this union obviously had a lot of power because of how out of line those salaries are in comparison to the rest of that area.

My concern is that every time something happens now in this country, there's a large segment of the population ready to 'blame Obama' no matter the facts and I think that's just wrong.

Now I'm not a supporter of the Democratic party (or the Republican party for that matter), I'd just like to see some degree of fairness and accuracy come about when people create this type of thread, because there is a lot of emotion that is bared when it comes to discussing the current political situation and it's spilling over into everything we talk about and touch...

[Peaches]

Nose...This shouldn't be about Obama or his administration. It's about making education work. It's become a mark against Obama because his Education Secretary "praised" the superintendent for her actions.

Here's a portion of the USA Today article: "President Obama was elected in 2008 with the support of teachers groups nationwide, but since then, he and Education Secretary Arne Duncan (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Politicians,+Government+Officials,+Strategists/Executive/Arne+Duncan) have taken up the cause of fixing the USA's most struggling schools. Duncan will soon release a list of 5,000 identified as most in need of reform.

On Tuesday, Duncan praised the district for "doing the right thing for kids."

Firing all the teachers and administrators in the only high school in the district was a bad idea. It isn't going to fix the problem. Yes, I believe in accountabiliity - but I'm not convinced that every teacher and every administrator in that school acted irresponsibly.

[nosefornews]

You and I can agree to disagree, I agree with the Superintendent and not the union and I am glad that the administration rather than falling into line behind the union took this stand. In my opinion, a large portion of the blame for the problems in our schools today can be laid directly at the feet of the union. Too much power, no accountability.

And ask yourself, would you have held the same opinion if this had been the Bush administration taking this stand?

Phew, this is exhausting....:)

[lmam88]

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/texas/texas-school-district-to-shut-down

[Peaches]

[QUOTE=nosefornews;4417]

And ask yourself, would you have held the same opinion if this had been the Bush administration taking this stand?


Yes, Nose, I would have the same opinion if the Bush Administration had taken this stand...

I don't like unions any more than you, but we have to take into consideration the damage that's been done by firing every teacher, good or bad, in the district. Besides, getting rid of the teachers (good or bad) isn't going to take the union out of the equation. It's never a good idea to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[nosefornews]

And I also would absolutely have the same opinion no matter which administration had the backbone to stand up and get rid of useless personnel. By cleaning out the entire school staff you can make everyone reapply for a job and then rehire those worthy of being rehired.

Would you have preferred they do nothing and continue to let the school rot and the children suffer even more? Or do you truly believe that the union was doing its best for the students?

And none of this would have happened if the union had agreed to some modifications in their contract.

[Peaches]

1. How is this going to make everyone reapply for a job in that school district? Why would good teachers want to go back to a school district from which they had been terminated?

3. Why didn't the district have an alternative education system to help those students at risk of failing or dropping out instead of demanding these teachers donate their time doing things that probably wouldn't generate overall positive results? Why not give good students a chance of getting a better education - by a classroom teacher who doesn't have to spend most of his/her time concentrating on students who just don't care about their futures? From all accounts I've read, this school has been in trouble for years (despite whichever political party occupied the White House).

3. "At Risk" students generally show signs of being "At Risk" before they get to high school. Why weren't all the teachers and all administrators in the school district not required to meet the superintendent's demands or be fired? There was only one high school in that district...

4. Is the district going to replace those fired teachers with non-union employees? Of course not. So, is this going to force the union to "make changes to their contract"? I doubt it.

5. Nose...if there were no teachers' union involved, would you still agree with firing every teacher in that school?

This is a lose-lose-lose situation. The school district didn't win, the union didn't win (but probably benefited more than anybody from the situation), and the teachers and students paid the price for the whole mess.

[nosefornews]

Let's deal with each question

1. If they want their job back they will reapply, if they don't then they won't, if I'm doing my job and I'm making 70k a year, you bet I'm going to reapply and make them prove why I don't deserve that job.

2. Why didn't they? beats me that's a question for them and which I'm not pretending to have the answers to. Donate their time? They're getting paid 70K to work 6.5 hours a day,you honestly think that asking them to work 7 hours a day is unreasonable? For a 9 month a year job. Yes, the school has been in trouble for years and nothing was done and finally the bill had to be paid for the poor performance.

3. At Risk, again you ask why, I have no idea that's a question we should post in a Rhode Island forum.

4. And yes, it most definitely could force the union into a new contract for this school, but again I don't know all of Rhode Islands rules and laws and that's beyond the scope of this thread (at least in my opinion)

5. Yes I would. If you fail to teach the students, if you fail in your job then get rid of them. If you don't perform in the private sector you can be fired. I was talking with a relative of mine who works for the San Antonio Independent School District and she was telling me that finally they're making it easier to get rid of bad teachers, that at one time it was virtually impossible to fire anyone, that if you had a teaching job and were past your probation you could keep it for life no matter how bad you were.

And I agree with you that this is a lose-lose-lose situation especially for the students who wanted an education and those teachers who actually wanted to teach.

And I like discussions that don't degenerate into name calling....thanks

[Peaches]

Nose, I agree with you that bad teachers need to go. Period. They shouldn't be protected by any union. Seems to me, however, the union failed everybody in this case...and so did the school district.

We can't forget that a teacher's workday doesn't begin and end when the bell rings. I know a lot of teachers, and I don't know any who work less than 40 hours a week. Many of the ones I know also work during summer break. Plus, I'm not convinced the teachers' salaries caused the average of all salaries to be so high. More than 90 people lost their jobs - 70-something of them were teachers. The rest were administrators, counselors, etc.

There are a lot of factors we don't know, but the median income of $22000 indicates that a lot of those students live in poverty. That alone probably has a bigger influence on their lives than anything the union did, or didn't do. Some things are beyond the control of teachers - good or bad teachers. I just don't believe the district did all that it could to provide the best possible conditions for all concerned.

Like I said, I hate unions. I'd feel differently if they worked to protect honest employees...but they don't. In my opinion, they protect greed, and they deserve to get slapped down for a lot of the things they do. But, the union, in this case, hasn't been slapped down - but, the teachers and the kids have...

And, Nose, I'm not mad at you (or anybody else) for having an opinion that differs from mine. I would never resort to name-calling.

[lmam88]

Bottom line for me is teachers should be fired on their own performance not because of others shortcomings. The good ones should not have a black mark put on their record undeservingly because what if they are tired of all the bull and want to move on to another district? Do you really think they have a chance of getting another job elsewhere? The all for one strategy is not the answer!
It's not just happening in R.I. as they are closings districts down right here in Texas which means other districts are going to be expereincing overcrowding to make up for the shortfall. Yes, there should be accountabilty but how high is the price going to have to be? Is it creating more problems then solutions?

[Peaches]

Imam...I wonder how many school districts are closing for financial reasons rather than poor academic performance. One of the Charter Schools was no longer operating at the time the decision was made to take away its accreditation.

Teachers have to deal with everything and everybody....the students, the administrators, the parents, the unions....I certainly hope nobody tries to blame financial woes on teachers.

[lmam88]

Teachers have to deal with everything and everybody....the students, the administrators, the parents, the unions....I certainly hope nobody tries to blame financial woes on teachers.[/QUOTE]

The finiacial end of it comes from the top of the totem pole not the teachers. Or so it should be! Do you know teachers have to raise money for gas money to put in the buses for fiield trips for the kids? That really threw me for a curve when I found out. I know my niece who teaches in Comal ISD has to spend some of her own money on school supplies for her classroom. So it is very evident that a lot of teachers are not in the profession for the money!
I do wonder what is going to happen to the school tax money collected in those districts that are closing though?

[Peaches]

The kids are going to be sent to schools in other school districts. Those school districts will become the tax collectors.

Financial matters can create situations were the only thing to do is close a school, or a school district. I would rather see that happen than see money spent on buildings where enrollment doesn't justify the cost. Llano Middle School closed a few years back when it was learned the district's reserve fund was at a level that wouldn't sustain the district for more than 3 days ($242,000). It was a very unpopular decision, but a lot of unpopular decisions had to be made because of actions taken by the old Superintendent, Jack Patton. He's the reason I know how difficult it is to terminate a school superintendent.

[lmam88]

I remember that situation in Llano! My s-daughter was a Junior or Senior and it affected their Prom that year. It was held at a place in Cottonwood because finiances were so bad that year.
It is sad that it takes so much to get a Super removed under dire circumstances. That just doesn't make much sense! Seems like the people who do the hiring should also be able to do the firing when the need arises.